Is The Endorsement Test Up for Grabs in New Supreme Court Case?

Salazar v. Buono, which the Court agreed to hear today, involves a relatively unusual fact pattern (quoting the federal government's statement of the Question Presented in its petition for review):

More than 70 years ago, the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) erected a cross as a memorial to fallen service members in a remote area within what is now a federal preserve. After the district court held that the presence of the cross on federal land violated the Establishment Clause and the court permanently enjoined the government from permitting the display of the cross, Congress enacted legislation directing the Department of the Interior to transfer an acre of land including the cross to the VFW in exchange for a parcel of equal value. The district court then permanently enjoined the government from implementing that Act of Congress, and the court of appeals affirmed. The questions presented are:

1. Whether respondent has standing to maintain this action where he has no objection to the public display of a cross, but instead is offended that the public land on which the cross is located is not also an open forum on which other persons might display other symbols.

2. Whether, even assuming respondent has standing, the court of appeals erred in refusing to give effect to the Act of Congress providing for the transfer of the land to private hands.

But resolving this question may well lead the Court to reconsider the deeper constitutional question -- should the Establishment Clause be read as presumptively barring government speech that endorses religion? My guess is that there are now 5 votes on the Court rejecting the endorsement test: Justices Scalia, Kennedy, and Thomas, who have criticized the test in the past, and Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito, who I suspect (based on the jurisprudential camp from which they come) would agree with the other conservatives.

To be sure, there are other ways the Court could avoid the problem; it can conclude that:

  1. Respondent (Buono, who successfully challenged the cross) doesn't have standing, for the reasons the government gives.

  2. Respondent doesn't have standing, because simply being exposed to religious speech -- even if it violates the Establishment Clause -- isn't enough of an injury to allow standing. (This would have the effect of rejecting most challenges to government religious speech, but would leave government officials presumably still honor-bound by the existing substantive precedents, and would leave those precedents enforceable as a matter of federal constitutional law in those states that have more relaxed standing requirements.)

  3. Even if there was an Establishment Clause problem when the government maintained the cross, privatizing the cross -- even in a way that's pretty clearly structured to preserve the cross on a little island of private property on government land -- avoids any such problem.

  4. Even if the Establishment Clause prohibits speech that a well-informed observer would see as endorsing religion (that's the standard articulation of the endorsement test), a well-informed observer would see the cross here as a war memorial, not an endorsement of religion.

There is also another possible problem for the Court: Given that the memorial is a cross, then if it is seen as a religious symbol (i.e., if theory 4 noted above isn't accepted), it would presumably be seen as a symbol for Christianity as such. And some language in Justice Scalia's opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU suggests that Christian-only symbolism might be unconstitutional even though a more ecumenical (Christianity/Judaism/Islam-friendly) "acknowledgment of a single Creator" should be permissible. (See here for more on Justice Scalia's argument in McCreary.)

Nonetheless, it's also possible that five of the Justices might conclude that the underlying problem is the endorsement test, that the test is not only mistaken on the merits but is also too indeterminate to be reliably administered, and that the Court should provide lower courts and government officials clearer guidance for a wide range of cases by concluding that government speech isn't made unconstitutional by its endorsement of religion. Such provision of guidance for future cases is an important part of the Court's function, and the endorsement test's critics have long argued that the Court's adoption of that test has been a failure on that score. In any case, should be quite a case to watch (unless the Court decides the major issue in Pleasant Grove City v. Summum, which I doubt, given the posture of that case).

FantasiaWHT:
My law review Comment called for the modification of the endorsement test, largely based on the disparity between this case and the 2005 7th circuit sale-of-land case which came out the other way, Mercier v. Fraternal Order of Eagles, 395 F.3d 693. My problem with the test is that the reasonable observer knows too much - knows all the history behind a display or action, knows the legislative intent, etc. It's too far removed from your typical "reasonable person" (such as in tort law) who usually is placed in the position of a real actor, with all his or her limitations.

The result is that the "reasonable observer" winds up being the judge him- or herself, since the judge is really the only real person who has access to all that information.
2.23.2009 11:53am
Sasha Volokh (mail) (www):
I'm a bit hazy on this, but... wouldn't this standing theory -- where the guy isn't offended by the cross itself, but has an offense that basically boils down to a concern that the government follow the law -- be a clear loser if this were anything but an Establishment Clause case? (Or is the government's description of Buono's standing theory tendentious?)

If so, then what Establishment Clause doctrine would allow standing? I recall there's a special taxpayer standing doctrine that applies to the Establishment Clause only, but this theory doesn't rely on taxpayer status. Is there something else in Establishment Clause standing doctrine that I'm missing?

If so, could this case just be a vehicle for getting rid of the special Establishment Clause standing doctrines?
2.23.2009 12:09pm
Houston Lawyer:
I would like for the standing issue to be similar to that which would be necessary to bring a second amendment claim. They should accept a lot fewer first amendment claims by people who are vicariously offended by some religious display.
2.23.2009 12:16pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
The core problem here is that the First Amendment was not intended to prohibit the endorsement of Christianity. See Joseph Story's A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States:

Probably, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State, so far as such encouragement was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.
2.23.2009 12:27pm
Oren:

Even if there was an Establishment Clause problem when the government maintained the cross, privatizing the cross -- even in a way that's pretty clearly structured to preserve the cross on a little island of private property on government land -- avoids any such problem.

Petitioner's contention is that the sale was biased because the government only considered selling to purchasers that would preserve the monument. IMO, that's valid because, by choosing the buyer, the government implicitly chooses what is to be done with it.

This could easily be overcome by selling the parcel at auction with no preconditions, which petitioner has no hope of winning anyway.


Even if the Establishment Clause prohibits speech that a well-informed observer would see as endorsing religion (that's the standard articulation of the endorsement test), a well-informed observer would see the cross here as a war memorial, not an endorsement of religion.

Isn't this a factual decision to be made by a lower court? They could reformulate the test as "whether a well-informed historically literate observer ..." and remand.
2.23.2009 12:31pm
Tony Tutins (mail):

a well-informed observer would see the cross here as a war memorial, not an endorsement of religion.

My problem with the test is that the reasonable observer knows too much

First, the uninformed observer merely sees (or doesn't notice) a cross. He does not know if it is on Federal property or not unless he investigates.

If he asks a local at the one gas station for a hundred miles, the answer will be, "That's the VFW's memorial." The VFW chose the site and designed the memorial -- they must answer only to their membership about a lack of religious symbol inclusiveness. What next, will Arlington have to replace crosses on graves with pentagrams?

The VFW comprises people who have made sacrifices for the benefit of all of us, and it is fitting and proper for the US to honor those sacrifices by allowing the VFW to maintain their veterans' memorial.

The problem here is exacerbated because the Federal government owns so much of the West. But even so, there are (I believe) islands of private property in vast seas of BLM or Forest Service land. So an acre for the VFW's memorial should not be a radical departure from normal land management practices.
2.23.2009 12:35pm
CJColucci:
Is this case going to illustrate the maxim that easy cases make bad law?
2.23.2009 1:01pm
Bill Sommerfeld (www):
How old would the cross have to be before it was considered a historic artifact -- an act of speech by someone long gone, rather than an ongoing act of speech?

I'm surprised that 70 years isn't old enough..
2.23.2009 1:23pm
anomdebus (mail):
The question that came to my mind when first reading this story is: how is this distinguished from the Afghan buddas that the Taliban destroyed? Perhaps the only factual difference is the lack of eminent domain over the buddas. (note post hoc establishment claims give incentive to enact eminent domain claims against private religious symbols some might find objectionable.)

With regard to the buyers, I think it makes sense to choose the VFW since they actually created it, as opposed to just picking a pro-cross group to sell to. For a parallel comparison, if there were a native american religious symbol that was in danger from the establishment clause, it would make sense to sell it back to the tribe from which it was originally obtained.

(note, I don't think this would be up for issue if it were not a christian symbol, but I think it should be handled neutrally anyway)
2.23.2009 1:26pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
The problem here is that early Congresses had no problem passing far more entangling endorsements of religion, even using public lands to support it, and no one seems to have filed any suits about it. Congress reserved section 29 of each township in Ohio for the support of religion. See American State Papers, House of Representatives, 11th Congress, 3rd Session, Public Lands: Volume 2, p. 220, document 187:

It appears to the committee, by the statement of the petitioners, that the third township of the eighth range in the Ohio Company's purchase is a fractional township, being intersected near the centre by the boundary line that separates the track purchased from the donation tract conveyed to the said company; that the said fractional township does not contain the section No. 29, set apart for the support of religion in the several townships in the said purchase, whereby the inhabitants are deprived of the benefit of the ministerial lands.

As late as 1833, you find Congressional bills that make reference to this, such as HR 653, 22nd Cong., 2nd sess.

To authorize the Legislature of the State of Ohio to sell the land reserved for the support of religion in the Ohio Company....


This seems to be the bill that created this, from Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, 1789-1873, December 30, 1801:

Mr. Tracy gave notice that he should, to-morrow, ask leave to bring in a bill to carry into effect the appropriations of lands in the purchase of the Ohio company, in the northwestern territory, for the support of schools and religion, and for other purposes.
The ACLU's theory of the First Amendment is completely contradicted by actual Congressional action in the decades immediately after ratification. Isn't it time to stop pretending that the ACLU's ahistorical theories have any relevance?
2.23.2009 1:31pm
zuch (mail) (www):
Tony Tutins:
What next, will Arlington have to replace crosses on graves with pentagrams?
I think you have it bass-ackwards. IIRC, there was some people that had to fight to get a pentagram on an Arlington tombstone. No one has demanded that pentagrams be placed on the tombstones of other soldiers; to suggest such is silly. But it is telling that the Pentagon had refused to place such on the tombstones of those that wanted this symbol....

Cheers,
2.23.2009 1:51pm
Michelle Dulak Thomson (mail):
Bill Sommerfeld,

If I'm remembering this correctly, the original memorial was destroyed long ago, and the current one is relatively recent. Both, of course, were cross-shaped.
2.23.2009 1:52pm
Tritium (mail):
Tracing the history of religio, we find it used in Latin in its original and wider sense of regard or respect, in such expressions as religio jurisjurandi, reverence for an oath, as distinguished from metum deorum, fear of the gods.

Religio and metus occur frequently together, for instance, Cic. ii. in Verr. 4, 45, 101, ut earn (cupiditatem) non metus, non religio continere, where we can translate the two words metus and religio by fear and awe, fear expressing the fear of men or of consequences, awe the fear of the gods. It is said in another place that when the moon was suddenly eclipsed on a clear night, the whole army was perturbed religione et metu, by awe and fear. Such expressions also as religio est facere aliquid do not refer to religious scruples* only, but to any qualms of conscience.

After a time, however, religio became more and more denned as the feeling of awe inspired by thoughts of divine powers. Thus Cicero states, religio est quae superioris cujusdam naturae quam divinam vacant curam caerimoniamque ajfert, 'Religion is what brings with it the care and cult of some higher power which they call divine.' As we find here religio and caerimonia placed side by side, we find likewise cultus and religio joined, the former expressing the outward, the latter the inward worship of the gods.

A distinction is soon made also between religion and superstition, as Cicero says, nee vero superstitione tollenda religio tollitur, ' though superstition should be removed, religion is not.'

Lastly, religio, and also the plural religiones, became the recognised names of outward religious acts, of cult and ceremony. Thus Cicero distinctly explains religio by cultus deorum, and he declares that the religion of the Romans is divided into sacra, sacrifices, and auspicia, observations of the flight of birds, to which a third part has been added, namely, when tho interpreters of the Sibyl or the haruspices declared something for the sake of prophecy from portenta and monstra. The auspicia he supposes to have been founded by Romulus, the sacra by Numa. In another place he distinguishes superstition from religion, quae deorum cultu pio continetur, ' which consists in the devout worship of the gods.' We meet even with such expressions as religio deorum immortalium, i. e. the worship of the immortal gods.

So far we can watch the natural development of the word religio in Latin. It began with the meaning of care, attention, reverence, awe; it then took the moral sense of scruple and conscience ; and lastly became more and more exclusively applied to the inward feeling of reverence for the gods and to the outward manifestation of that reverence in worship and sacrifice. There are some late writers who use religio in the sense of faith; for instance, Cassiodorus (died 562, A.D.), Religionem cogere non possumus, quia nemo cogitur ut invitus credat, ' We cannot force religion, for no one is ever forced to believe against his will': but in classical Latin religio never has that meaning.

Thus ends the biography of the word religio, so long as it lived its natural life, unchequered by technical definition. We can clearly see that what the Romans expressed by religio was chiefly the moral or practical, not the speculative or philosophical side of religion. The questions as to the existence, the character and powers of their gods, did not trouble their minds, so long as they were left to themselves; still less did they make their sense of moral obligation, which they called religio, dependent on their faith in the gods only. They had a feeling of awe in their hearts at the sight of anything that seemed to them overpowering and beyond the grasp of their senses and their understanding. They did not care much whence that feeling arose, but they called it religio, that is, considering, thinking twice, hesitating; that was enough for them. The idea that the gods had implanted that feeling in their hearts, or that a thing was wrong or right because the gods had forbidden or commanded it, did not occur to them, till they had come in contact with Greek philosophy. Their religion, if we may use that word in its later and far more general sense, was very much what Spinoza in his Tractatus theologico-politicus thinks that practical religion ought always to be, simple piety and obedience, as distinguished from philosophy and love of knowledge. The gods were accepted without any misgivings, their approval of what was right and good was taken for granted, and no further questions were asked. So great is the difference between religio, as understood by the Romans, and religio as commonly understood by us, that religio Romana would never have conveyed to Cato the idea of his knowledge of Jupiter, Mars, or Vesta, and the duties he owed to them, but rather that of ancient Roman piety. There is a well-known verse by Schiller:

'Which religion I have? There is none of all you may mention, Which I embrace, and the cause? Truly, religion it is.'


It would seem to me that an establishment of Religion is an establishment of morality or legislative restrictions upon free will. When Madison suggested this amendment, he used "freedom of conscience" which aligns better with the true definition or religion.
2.23.2009 1:57pm
Matt P (mail):
I think Sommerfeld asks a good question. I'd also like to know when the first case of this type came to court.
2.23.2009 1:59pm
Guest14:
The ACLU's theory of the First Amendment is completely contradicted by actual Congressional action in the decades immediately after ratification. Isn't it time to stop pretending that the ACLU's ahistorical theories have any relevance?


A better idea is to stop pretending we're bound by the misguided ideas of a long-dead Congress. The government should no more encourage religious expression than it should encourage any other unfortunate holdover from a more benighted age, such as racism. If the founders didn't understand this, so much the worse for the founders.
2.23.2009 2:07pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

A better idea is to stop pretending we're bound by the misguided ideas of a long-dead Congress. The government should no more encourage religious expression than it should encourage any other unfortunate holdover from a more benighted age, such as racism. If the founders didn't understand this, so much the worse for the founders.
So you are agreeing that the Bill of Rights and the other substantive restrictions on governmental power should be ignored? Waterboarding; torture; bans on pornography and abortion.
2.23.2009 2:15pm
zuch (mail) (www):
Clayton E. Cramer:

Joseph Story was hardly a disinterested chronicler of the fight; he was actively in the 'This is a Christian nation, and should be" camp (see, e.g., here and here). His single voice on this is hardly more authoritative than, say, that of Madison and Jefferson, authors of the religion laws and Constitutional provisions of the time.
The ACLU's theory of the First Amendment is completely contradicted by actual Congressional action in the decades immediately after ratification. Isn't it time to stop pretending that the ACLU's ahistorical theories have any relevance
The more you look, the more diversity of opinion you will find ... but that hardly makes any such thing authoritative. In the business of "ahistoricality", the CRW are the champs at revising history, and even just making sh*te up.

Cheers,
2.23.2009 2:17pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Joseph Story was hardly a disinterested chronicler of the fight; he was actively in the 'This is a Christian nation, and should be" camp (see, e.g., here and here). His single voice on this is hardly more authoritative than, say, that of Madison and Jefferson, authors of the religion laws and Constitutional provisions of the time.
Congressional action is pretty persuasive of what constitutes majority opinion. And of course, both Madison and Jefferson allowed government buildings to be used for the promotion of Christianity, such as church services.

If there is anyone making stuff up, it is the crowd that asserts that the First Amendment was intended to create neutrality between religion and irreligion.
2.23.2009 2:21pm
Tony Tutins (mail):

The government should no more encourage religious expression than it should encourage any other unfortunate holdover from a more benighted age, such as racism.

Yet that pesky Constitution prohibits the government from suppressing religious expression.

Which makes me wonder: If a man prays in a (National) forest and no atheist is around to hear it, does it still make a Federal case?"
2.23.2009 2:22pm
Oren:


Which makes me wonder: If a man prays in a (National) forest and no atheist is around to hear it, does it still make a Federal case?"


Would a reasonable, historically-literate observer conclude that his prayer constitutes and endorsement of religion by the Federal government?
2.23.2009 2:38pm
Steve H (mail):

but would leave government officials presumably still honor-bound ...


Excuse me?

Anyway, I'm a pretty strict Separationist, but I would vote for Door #4 -- a cross used in this instance seems to convey a message as a memorial.

I don't see it as conveying either a substantive religious message (Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and whoever believeth in him ... ), or even the meta-message that "We as a nation are Christians and if you want to be part of this nation, you will be too."
2.23.2009 2:39pm
Anon21:
Clayton E. Cramer:

Given that the Sedition Act is in the VC news today, how do you feel about early Congresses' endorsement of the principle that the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause allows for the punishment of "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" intended to bring government officials into "contempt or disrepute"? What's the point of having a written Constitution if early Congresses can effectively amend its terms out of existence by passing laws which directly violate the plain language of its provisions?
2.23.2009 2:42pm
Guest14:
So you are agreeing that the Bill of Rights and the other substantive restrictions on governmental power should be ignored?
Yes, that's just what I said. Substantive restrictions on governmental power should be ignored, every last one.

Why did you even bother responding?
2.23.2009 2:46pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Given that the Sedition Act is in the VC news today, how do you feel about early Congresses' endorsement of the principle that the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause allows for the punishment of "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" intended to bring government officials into "contempt or disrepute"? What's the point of having a written Constitution if early Congresses can effectively amend its terms out of existence by passing laws which directly violate the plain language of its provisions?
It isn't at clear that the Sedition Act as written was in violation of the First Amendment. Certainly, how it was applied by Federalist judges and juries to the facts of many individual cases was in violation. But there's a considerable body of evidence that the protection of freedom of speech and of the press was intended to prohibit prior restraint--and not to prevent punishment of those who engaged in libel, slander, or obscenity. Not only civil libel laws survived, but even criminal libel laws remain on the books, and sporadically enforced.
2.23.2009 2:49pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Yes, that's just what I said. Substantive restrictions on governmental power should be ignored, every last one.
I was pointing out that your claim, if actually applied in a consistent manner, would scrap the Bill of Rights. If you want an unlimited democracy, say so. Much of modern liberalism is built on a selective (and often intentionally deceptive) application of the ideas of a bunch of dead guys.
2.23.2009 2:52pm
Tritium (mail):
Would anyone entertain an idea that a Constitution is to remain Constant, until a new Constitution alters it? Amendments to the Constitution are constitution as long as the are made pursuant to the Constitution. Anything to the contrary is Unconstitutional. Should restrictions established by the Constitution be in need of alteration, then a Constitutional Convention can be called as was done previously to replace the Articles of Confederation.

Amendments 1-12 were merely declaration, and not contrary to any part of the Constitution. Washingtons farewell address appears to confirm this as true.
2.23.2009 2:53pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Would anyone entertain an idea that a Constitution is to remain Constant, until a new Constitution alters it? Amendments to the Constitution are constitution as long as the are made pursuant to the Constitution.
I would entertain it. But this is contrary to liberalism, except when John Yoo decides that changing circumstances require the living, breathing, constantly mutuating Constitution to allow extraordinary actions in response to extraordinary problems.
2.23.2009 2:54pm
PersonFromPorlock:
Something that needs to be pointed out: "an establishment of religion" isn't a religion, it's an officially sanctioned church. So long as the federal government doesn't sponsor a particular church it's perfectly free, under the Establishment Clause, to promote Christianity, or any other religion. This, of course, runs squarely into the Fourteenth Amendment but that's a different story.
2.23.2009 2:58pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Something that needs to be pointed out: "an establishment of religion" isn't a religion, it's an officially sanctioned church. So long as the federal government doesn't sponsor a particular church it's perfectly free, under the Establishment Clause, to promote Christianity, or any other religion.
That doesn't conform to the ACLU's parallel universe history, so the courts won't seriously entertain it.
2.23.2009 3:05pm
AJK:
As I'm sure you're aware, Madison thought that a strict reading of the Constitution precluded Congressional (and military) chaplains. If anything, Story's writings suggest that a broad reading of the Establishment had a certain currency as early as 1833. Obviously, Story didn't accept that reasoning, but his dissent hardly refutes it.
2.23.2009 3:13pm
pintler:

Something that needs to be pointed out: "an establishment of religion" isn't a religion, it's an officially sanctioned church. So long as the federal government doesn't sponsor a particular church it's perfectly free, under the Establishment Clause, to promote Christianity, or any other religion.


Could you elaborate on what 'particular church' means? Which of the following are narrow enough to be prohibited?

1)The gov't promotes theism in general, relative to atheism.
2)The gov't promotes monotheism, relative to multi-deity religions.
3)The gov't promotes Christianity relative to other monotheistic religions.
4)The gov't promotes Presbyterianism over other Christian denominations.
5)The gov't promotes one particular type of Presbyterianism over other flavors.
6)The gov't promotes the Third Presbyterian Church of Murfreesboro over other congregations of the same denomination?

My reading of your comment is that #6 is prohibited - are any of the others?
2.23.2009 3:34pm
ArthurKirkland:
Why would the VFW, which ostensibly would be particularly sensitive to the interests of fallen soldiers, disregard (at best) the interests of Jewish, Hindu, agnostic, athiest, Muslim and other non-Christian soldiers by erecting a cross as a war memorial?

Why would the Pentagon honor one fallen soldier by honoring a wish to place a cross on a headstone, yet dishonor another fallen soldier by declining to place a desired pentagram on a headstone?

These are not intended to be rhetorical questions.
2.23.2009 3:38pm
Tritium (mail):
Remember, a Church in British Empire was nothing more than a local Government of the Community.

I believe the intent was to avoid respecting an establishment of any institution based upon idealogy that is neither proveable nor disprovable through scientific experiment. This could include political parties. While a person is free to claim principles they closely align with, establishing a group that promotes those principles would be unconstitutional.
2.23.2009 3:55pm
Tony Tutins (mail):

Why would the VFW, which ostensibly would be particularly sensitive to the interests of fallen soldiers, disregard (at best) the interests of ... Hindu, agnostic, ...

This attempts to impress a Christian perspective on all other faiths, like describing the feast of Hanukhah as "Jewish Christmas." In Western culture, a cross is a symbol of sacrifice. Not every faith has an easily visible symbol of sacrifice or death, and an attempt to include emblems of all faiths (the famous question mark for agnostics, a giant cow for Hindus...) would trivialize the monument, and turn it from a solemn memorial to a joke.
2.23.2009 3:57pm
David Drake:
ArthurKirkland--

Why not ask the VFW?

pintler:

I don't think "promotes" captures the essence of what I believe 18th Century people would have thought of when they used the phrase "establishment" of a religion. I think it meant more like "adopts as the official religion" (like, e.g., the Anglican Church in England or Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia.) Of course, that is NOT the current reading.

Anyway, my answer on original public meaning is "none of the above." If not, then I would say 4, 5 and 6 are all prohibited.
2.23.2009 4:03pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

As I'm sure you're aware, Madison thought that a strict reading of the Constitution precluded Congressional (and military) chaplains. If anything, Story's writings suggest that a broad reading of the Establishment had a certain currency as early as 1833. Obviously, Story didn't accept that reasoning, but his dissent hardly refutes it.
The actions of a majority of Congress in providing for sales of government lands to fund whatever church a majority of the township picked does.
2.23.2009 4:06pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Could you elaborate on what 'particular church' means? Which of the following are narrow enough to be prohibited?

1)The gov't promotes theism in general, relative to atheism.
2)The gov't promotes monotheism, relative to multi-deity religions.
3)The gov't promotes Christianity relative to other monotheistic religions.
4)The gov't promotes Presbyterianism over other Christian denominations.
5)The gov't promotes one particular type of Presbyterianism over other flavors.
6)The gov't promotes the Third Presbyterian Church of Murfreesboro over other congregations of the same denomination?

My reading of your comment is that #6 is prohibited - are any of the others?
4 and 5, clearly. I would agree that the evidence to support 3 being prohibited is inconclusive.
2.23.2009 4:09pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Why would the VFW, which ostensibly would be particularly sensitive to the interests of fallen soldiers, disregard (at best) the interests of Jewish, Hindu, agnostic, athiest, Muslim and other non-Christian soldiers by erecting a cross as a war memorial?
When the cross was first put up, 70 years ago, there were very, very few Hindu, agnostic, atheist, or Muslim soldiers. There were Jewish soldiers, but only a few percent. Insensitive? Yup. But compared to a lot of other things that were commonly accepted because of majority rule, pretty minor.
2.23.2009 4:11pm
AJK:

The actions of a majority of Congress in providing for sales of government lands to fund whatever church a majority of the township picked does.


That doesn't prove your/Story's point -- it just shows that a majority of Congressmen in the early Republic either agreed with your reading of the First Amendment or didn't care about passing an unconstitutional act. (And, I suppose, that no one with standing cared enough to sue about it.)
2.23.2009 4:41pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
Clayton Cramer wrote:


3)The gov't promotes Christianity relative to other monotheistic religions.
4)The gov't promotes Presbyterianism over other Christian denominations.
5)The gov't promotes one particular type of Presbyterianism over other flavors.
6)The gov't promotes the Third Presbyterian Church of Murfreesboro over other congregations of the same denomination?

My reading of your comment is that #6 is prohibited - are any of the others?

4 and 5, clearly. I would agree that the evidence to support 3 being prohibited is inconclusive.


Here is where Clayton wants to have his cake and eat it too. You can't prohibit 4 &5, in a constitutional sense, without prohibiting 3. James Madison understood this. In order to promote Christianity to the exclusion of other religions, you first have to define "Christianity." Madison, Story, and many other "key Founders" believed in the unitarian heresy that flunks the historical test for Christianity as much as Mormonism does. Yet, as with the Mormons, they presented their heresy as "Christianity."

So whatever can be gleaned from the historical record we cannot determine the Founders thought government should be able to promote "Christianity" (defined by its historical orthodoxy) to the exclusion of other religions, but not discriminate among the Christian sects. This is the fatal flaw in the "Christian Nation" argument.

We may be able to conclude that the First Amendment means:

1) government can promote religion in general not Christianity in particular;

2) government can promote "Christianity" in name only to the exclusion of other religions that don't call themselves Christian. But this means anything that calls itself Christian, even unitarian, atheistic or homosexual, gets to be Christian for legal purposes, or

3) Government can promote any religion it wants to the exclusion of other religions. And this means government can promote Mormonism or a particular kind of Presbyterianism to the exclusion of ANY other Christian sect.
2.23.2009 4:49pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

That doesn't prove your/Story's point -- it just shows that a majority of Congressmen in the early Republic either agreed with your reading of the First Amendment or didn't care about passing an unconstitutional act. (And, I suppose, that no one with standing cared enough to sue about it.)
Where are the protests? At least the Sedition Act generated a vigorous objection, as did the First Bank of the United States, on Constitutional grounds. Where is the protest of these actions as violating the Constitution?
2.23.2009 5:52pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Here is where Clayton wants to have his cake and eat it too. You can't prohibit 4 &5, in a constitutional sense, without prohibiting 3. James Madison understood this. In order to promote Christianity to the exclusion of other religions, you first have to define "Christianity." Madison, Story, and many other "key Founders" believed in the unitarian heresy that flunks the historical test for Christianity as much as Mormonism does. Yet, as with the Mormons, they presented their heresy as "Christianity."
Unitarianism, as much as more orthodox Christians reviled it, looks pretty darn Christian compared to atheism.
2.23.2009 5:54pm
DangerMouse:
Libs will never be satisfied until Christianity is stamped out. They appreciate aggressive, evangelical atheism and believe that religion is the cause of many of the world's problems. It is certainly beyond the pale that the government could be involved in promoting religion, let alone Christianity.

It'd be great if the endorsement test is abolished. I don't see it in my copy of the Constitution. I do see a prohibition on the establishment of religion. The President is not the head of the national Church (sorry Obama, you're not really the Messiah). As late as the 1830s certain states had variations on an established Church, so Americans certainly knew what it meant back then.

This idiocy that a cross on federal land somehow means that Obama is the head of a Christian Church would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

And yes, I see little difference between the destruction of the buddhist statues and the tearing down of the cross here.

What else will be torn down by the libs? The Lincoln Memorial, which has "God" carved in stone on its walls?
2.23.2009 6:06pm
ArthurKirkland:
It was far easier to be insensitive seventy years ago, so the VFW might merit a pass on using a cross to honor fallen Jews, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, etc. (If it would take the same position today, however, it would forfeit its claim to advocacy of veterans' interests.)

The United States government, however, can't qualify for a pass. The Pentagon apparently was fighting, as recently as a couple of years ago, to prevent families from vindicating fallen soldiers' preferences for pentagrams on Arlington tombstones. It appears the government stonewalled Wiccans for at least eight years (while approving a number of later-filed requests to use other emblems of faith) and did not relent until sued.

Is there any reason any of the people who devised, implemented or defended that position should continue to be employed by our government? Anyone at the Pentagon (or is involved in civilian control of the military) who has that much difficulty acknowledging our Constitution or a dead soldier's wishes is plainly in the wrong business.

If anyone has a link to legal documents filed by the government in opposition to the Wiccans' claim, a pointer would be greatly appreciated.
2.23.2009 6:32pm
ReaderY:
The Supreme Court, if it wishes, can easily resolve this case without completely gutting the Endorsement clause. It's worth noting that Justice Breyer, who is not on the list, cited Justice Harlan in expressing a willingness a view that not every religious symbol on public land represents a violation of the Establishment Clause, particularly where old memorials are involved.

Old war memorials have particular concern. Countries often agree not to dismantle or deface each other's war memorials as one of the conditions when they make peace. Would the First Amendment be construed to require the United States to continue a war rather than make or keep a peace on such a basis? Would anyone want such a result?
2.23.2009 8:11pm
ReaderY:

A better idea is to stop pretending we're bound by the misguided ideas of a long-dead Congress. The government should no more encourage religious expression than it should encourage any other unfortunate holdover from a more benighted age, such as racism. If the founders didn't understand this, so much the worse for the founders.



But then of course the government of an even more enlightened age than our own would be equally free to dispense with such archaisms as trials, habeas corpus, and elections. These provisions are also misguded, and in exactly the same way -- they also prevent the enlightened from doing what's obviously the right thing, and for the sole benefit of darks souls who just don't understand.

In this country, the electorate is entitled to throw enlightened people out of office and put complete idiots in their place (and everybody, no matter what their politics, seems to agree the electorate has actually exercised this right on numerous occassions.) If the enlighted weren't stymied by these rediculously archaic constitutional provisions, I have no doubt that elections would be one of the first things to go, with trials soon after.
2.23.2009 8:25pm
PersonFromPorlock:
pintler:

Could you elaborate on what 'particular church' means? Which of the following are narrow enough to be prohibited?

1)The gov't promotes theism in general, relative to atheism.
2)The gov't promotes monotheism, relative to multi-deity religions.
3)The gov't promotes Christianity relative to other monotheistic religions.
4)The gov't promotes Presbyterianism over other Christian denominations.
5)The gov't promotes one particular type of Presbyterianism over other flavors.
6)The gov't promotes the Third Presbyterian Church of Murfreesboro over other congregations of the same denomination?

My reading of your comment is that #6 is prohibited - are any of the others?


By "particular church" I mean a denomination, like the Congregational Church, which was the established religion in Massachusetts; and by "established" I mean that it received subsidies, preferential treatment at law and so forth. "Promotes" is a little too weak to describe establishment.

So 5 for sure, or 4 if the denomination is unified.

Let me emphasize that my view of the Establishment Clause is thoroughly heretical. I see it as simply protecting the then-extant state establishments of religion from federal interference, either indirectly by competition ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion") or directly ("nor interfering with the free exercise thereof"). This last phrase is generally held to defend individual religious freedom but in fact there's nothing for the "thereof" to refer back to except "an establishment of religion," the subject of the first phrase.
2.23.2009 8:53pm
J. Aldridge:
How about No. 5: No law was made respecting a specific established religion. End of case.
2.23.2009 9:37pm
AJK:

in fact there's nothing for the "thereof" to refer back to except "an establishment of religion," the subject of the first phrase.


What about "religion"?
2.24.2009 12:14am
Tritium (mail):
A Choice, Will, Desire, Self Determination, Responsibility, Consequentiality. Self Reliance, experience vs. told, Life vs. unwise.
2.24.2009 7:23am
PersonFromPorlock:
AJK:

in fact there's nothing for the "thereof" to refer back to except "an establishment of religion," the subject of the first phrase.



What about "religion"?


If it refers to "religion" then "the free exercise thereof" protected all religious practices, including human sacrifice, from governmental interference in federal territories - and now protects them against state action by way of the Fourteenth Amendment. It just makes better sense to see the phrase as protecting only the right of states to run their 'establishments of religion' without federal interference.
2.24.2009 8:32am
pintler:

1)The gov't promotes theism in general, relative to atheism.
2)The gov't promotes monotheism, relative to multi-deity religions.
3)The gov't promotes Christianity relative to other monotheistic religions.
4)The gov't promotes Presbyterianism over other Christian denominations.
5)The gov't promotes one particular type of Presbyterianism over other flavors.
6)The gov't promotes the Third Presbyterian Church of Murfreesboro over other congregations of the same denomination?


The general consensus among respondents seems to be that #1 and #2 are clearly allowed, and probably #3. That raises questions about some of the nuances - is Christianity the only monotheistic religion the government may 'promote' (however 'promote' is defined)? Could some future California administration promote Scientology (assuming, arguendo, that Scientology meets the monotheistic test), or can Utah promote the LDS church (if you classify it separately from the other Christian denominations).

Is the belief that the gov't may only prefer monotheism over pantheism rooted in the historical contaxt? I don't see a particular kind of theism mentioned in the text itself.

Secondly, once the gov't has decided to promote a particular religion - Catholicism or Wicca or whatever - what kinds of promotion are allowable? Statues of the Virgin or pentagrams in the courthouse, to the exclusion of other symbols? Tax breaks? Grants? What are the outer boundaries of what is acceptable?
2.24.2009 9:38am
Tritium (mail):
Christianity comes in many forms in the United States. Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterian, Republican, Democrats, etc.

Why do we respect some, over the others? They each are based upon a belief in how things work. They all receive donations from members and businesses. They all preach, and follow the head of their membership. House of Representatives always have an opening prayer before beginning a session of the house. What is the real difference?
2.24.2009 10:25am
wolfefan (mail):
Hi -

ArthurKirkland concludes: "These are not intended to be rhetorical questions."

I would say that the VFW cares about civil religon, as opposed to true Christianity. Christianity as civil religon is an important part of our national history, but it has little do to with actually obeying Jesus. Even some conspirators have no truck with obedience to Christ - see Dave Kopel last year in a paper that started out to be about pacifism, was quite critical of the one evangelical Christian profiled, openly mocked the idea that Christians should seek to apply Christ's teachings and somehow mutated into being about guns (surprise!)

If in obedience to Christ we as a people were content with what we have, what would that do to our economy? If we resisted not evil, what would that do to our national defense?

Government officials promise to protect and defend the Constitution (language varying by office.) The Christian promises to obey Christ. At times these two promises are in tension, and the official must choose which is more important. This is one of the appeals of civil religon; it allows people to pretend that by serving the nation they are also serving God. (I don't claim to be able to read their minds, but I suspect this is the basis of a lot of the pious language of the founders/framers. Their lives and other words usually don't show much in the way of obedience to Christian teaching.)

There is a sense in which the government has already established a church; one with the trappings and symbols of Christianity, but none of the Spirit or committment. Even SCOTUS recognizes this, noting that many Christian symbols are valuable for their cultural/historical significance as opposed to their religous significance.

The cross in question advances the civil religon, but has little or nothing to do with Christianity itself.
2.24.2009 10:56am
zuch (mail) (www):
Clayton E. Cramer:
[Arne]: Joseph Story was hardly a disinterested chronicler of the fight; he was actively in the 'This is a Christian nation, and should be" camp (see, e.g., here and here). His single voice on this is hardly more authoritative than, say, that of Madison and Jefferson, authors of the religion laws and Constitutional provisions of the time.

[Clayton]: Congressional action is pretty persuasive of what constitutes majority opinion....
I was referring to the cite of Story, not Congressional action. But Congressional action in the 1800s is hardly persuasive either (and the view of individual states even less so).
[Clayton]: And of course, both Madison and Jefferson allowed government buildings to be used for the promotion of Christianity, such as church services.
"Allowed" is hardly proponency. Feel free to browse the C&S archives for plenty in response to your implicit and explicit claims.
[Clayton]: If there is anyone making stuff up, it is the crowd that asserts that the First Amendment was intended to create neutrality between religion and irreligion.
David Barton is the king of quote-fabricators (see links in my prior post), but the rest of the "This is a Christian nation" bunch merrily rewrite history with abandon as well, and the argument that the founders just meant neutrality between faiths is addressed by the C&S pages (see here, search "neutrality" and follow the links).

Cheers,
2.24.2009 12:36pm
zuch (mail) (www):
Clayton E. Cramer:
But there's a considerable body of evidence that the protection of freedom of speech and of the press was intended to prohibit prior restraint--and not to prevent punishment of those who engaged in libel, slander, or obscenity.
Nonsense. Prior restraint is only one (particularly pernicious) aspect of (lack of) freedom of speech. If people can be punished for their opinions post-publication, there's hardly any freedom. If the intent had been only to address prior restraint, they would have said so. Your 'argument' here (prior restraint v. punishment of LS&O) is a "fallacy of bifurcation" (or simply a gross misunderstanding of the issues in play).

Cheers,
2.24.2009 12:43pm
Tritium (mail):
Liberty comes with responsibility. Responsibility includes being prepared to face the consequence for your actions in eceercising those liberties.

The powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression; and that every power not granted thereby remains with them, and at their will. That, therefore, no right of any denomination can be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by the Congress, by the Senate or House of Representatives, acting in any capacity, by the President, or any department or officer of the United States, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes; and that, among other essential rights, the liberty of conscience and of the press cannot be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by any authority of the United States."

Here is an express and solemn declaration by the Convention of the State, that they ratified the Constitution in the sense that no right of any denomination can be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by the Government of the United States, or any part of it, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution; and in the sense, particularly, " that among other essential rights, the liberty of conscience and freedom of the press cannot be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by any authority of the United States."

Words could not well express in a fuller or more forcible manner the understanding of the Convention, that the liberty of conscience and the freedom of the press were equally and completely exempted from all authority whatever of the United States.
2.24.2009 2:13pm

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