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Virginia Tech's Students for Concealed Carry on Campus:

Last week, two student leaders of the Virginia Tech chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus were interviewed in a podcast by the Independence Institute's Jon Caldara. It's an 18 minute podcast, and very powerful, not only in the personal stories that are told, but in the calm logic of the SCCC presentation.

Here at the Independence Institute, we have started a weekly series of podcasts on Second Amendment issues. Some recent topics have been: international data showing the countries with most guns tend to have the most civil, political, and economic freedom; my law review article in progress on campus carry reform; the call to ban "assault weapons" because of problems in Mexico; Education Secretary Arne Duncan; and the Independence Institute's empirical brief in the Chicago handgun ban appeal. The archive of all our iVoices.org podcasts on Second Amendment issues is here.

Wilpert Archibald Gobsmacked (mail):
Counting down until our betters begin refuting this idea. 5-----4-----3-----2-----1--
3.16.2009 9:21pm
Dilan Esper (mail) (www):
It's an interesting issue. Logically, college students are adults and the right to keep and bear arms should protect their right to defend themselves.

But I suspect that, whatever one says about the logic, this sort of claim doesn't have any legs. There are a bunch of public places-- courthouses, sports stadiums, airports, etc.-- where I suspect the courts are going to uphold regulations that do not permit private citizens to carry arms. And of all the places to mount this sort of challenge, a school seems to me to be just about the toughest case. Yes, college students are adults, but your average judge is going to be thinking about all the drinking and debauchery and emotional immaturity that occurs on a college campus, and is likely to analogize the students to almost-minors.

Mind you, I am not saying the challenge SHOULD fail-- but I predict it will.
3.16.2009 9:40pm
Soronel Haetir (mail):
I have significant problems trying to equate campuses with airports and courthouses, the owners of such facilities take proactive steps to remove accessible weapons from the environment. Statiums are a somewhat middle ground, but general university campus is not enclosed in any meaningful sense.

An example of the sort of regulation I like in this area, though I'm not sure it's still the case. Washington allows CCL holders to enter the unsecured portions of jails, only upon entering a restricted portion of the facility must the weapon be turned over for safekeeping.

I would very much like to see similar rules for airports and courthouses, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
3.16.2009 10:02pm
Kirk:
S.H.,

Another example from the lovely state of Washington is that, at courthouses where we are disarmed by law, the counties are required to store our handguns for us so a simple trip to the courthouse doesn't result in our being unarmed throughout our entire journey.

Some day, most of the rest of the US may catch up to us, but I'm not holding my breath.
3.16.2009 10:18pm
therut (mail):
Before Clinton back in the stone ages. What happened on University Campuses. You only had to be 18 to own a handgun legally and there was none of the stupid gun free zones at our schools. I know I had my handgun with me in the dorm. I guess back in ancient times we were more mature and treated as adults at the time we were adults. I just wonder what the laws were in different States at that time and University rules at the time. Anyone else remember. I do not remember anyone even discussing firearms as such before Clinton.
3.16.2009 10:41pm
zippypinhead:
I would think Students for Concealed Carry on Campus have an especially heavy boulder to push up the mountain at Virginia Tech. Knowing two current Tech students and several alumni who live in my immediate neighborhood and having watched the continuing reaction since the Cho rampage (which had several victims from my county), I daresay the emotions are still running a bit too high, and the wounds are far too raw, for there to the the sort of rational discourse this topic deserves.

A damn shame...
3.16.2009 11:09pm
PersonFromPorlock:
Maybe what we really need is some status between 'child' and 'adult' that applies to people from, say, ages 16-24. Better that than to keep nibbling away at what 'adult' means.
3.17.2009 8:04am
pintler:

Yes, college students are adults, but your average judge is going to be thinking about all the drinking and debauchery and emotional immaturity that occurs on a college campus


Many states prohibit being armed in public while intoxicated, which always seemed like a good idea.

I would also note that dorms are a special case, possibly requiring different policies than for someone living off campus. I am guessing that most students old enough to have a carry permit (21, usually?) have moved off campus, at least that was the case when I was in school.


Knowing two current Tech students and several alumni who live in my immediate neighborhood and having watched the continuing reaction since the Cho rampage (which had several victims from my county), I daresay the emotions are still running a bit too high, and the wounds are far too raw


FWIW, I'm a Hokie, and my emotions run high in favor of SCCC.
3.17.2009 9:33am
Yankev (mail):
Somewhat OT, but if we can't get ammunition, this may be academic, and Obama has found a new way to dry up the supply of ammunition for citizens and police, without having to go to Congress. The Department of Defense has announced it will no longer sell its used brass, which dries up the supply of casings for ammo remanufacturers, and drives up the cost. Existing contracts to purchase used brass have been cancelled unless the purchaser agrees to shred the casings into brass scrap. One ammo remanufacturer has already had to lay off employees because of this. Pretty slick move by Obama -- just declare that the used casings are military sensitive material and must be demilled before delivery. More at theshootist.net on March 15, 2009.


It is an end-run around Congress. They don't need to try to ban guns--they don't need to fight a massive battle to attempt gun registration, or limit "assault" weapon sales.

Nope. All they have to do is limit the amount of ammunition available to the civilian market, and when bullets dry up, guns will be useless.

Think we jest?

Here are copies of two letters sent to Georgia Arms just Thursday evening--effectively cancelling a contract he had to purchase 30,000 pounds of expended military brass in .223, 7.62mm, and .50 caliber:


Dear Valued Customer:

Please take a moment to note important changes set forth by the Defense Logistics Agency:

Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA's current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.

Thank you,

DOD Surplus
15051 N Kierland Blvd # 300
Scottsdale, AZ 85254
3.17.2009 9:46am
Snaphappy:
Ha ha! Thanks Yankev, that's the first good news I have heard this week.
3.17.2009 10:17am
DonP (mail):
Thank heavens the technology doesn't commonly exist to melt and reprocess shredded brass then reform it into sheets for production of some type of tubular device of a specific size, OAL and neck diameter.

But ultimately it will drive up the cost of reloaded ammo to some degree so the Joyce Foundation will be happy with the results.
3.17.2009 11:50am
Yankev (mail):
Snaphappy, I assume that your respect for the legislative process and the will of the voters are similar to your respect for the rest of our constitution.
3.17.2009 1:29pm
Snaphappy:
Yankev, you do not have a constitutional right to buy recycled military ammunition Presumably someone other than the military knows how to make brass casings.
3.17.2009 2:21pm
Jim Manley (mail):
Mountain States Legal Foundation is representing SCCC and its members in a suit against the University of Colorado's concealed carry ban: http://www.mountainstateslegal.org/
legal_cases.cfm?legalcaseid=196

Also, note that concealed carry is permitted at all Utah colleges, at Colorado State University, and Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA). All three have prefect safety records with regard to concealed carry.
3.17.2009 2:28pm
WPZ (mail):
Contrast this discussion about students with the realities of student life only a few years ago- in a Chicago-area high school.
Maine East High School in Des Plaines, IL, used to have a very good shooting range in the basement, I'm told, up unitl sometime in the 1960's.
For reference, this is the high school a few miles from Maine South, which Hilary Clinton graduated from, and at the same time, so this isn't some Mayberry sort of place back in the Civil War era.
These high schoolers brought their firearms to school and learned to shoot, all without, miraculously, committing any mass murders whatsoever.
Something changed here, one would suspect...
3.17.2009 3:46pm
LarryA (mail) (www):
Contrast this discussion about students with the realities of student life only a few years ago- in a Chicago-area high school. Maine East High School in Des Plaines, IL, used to have a very good shooting range in the basement, I'm told, up until sometime in the 1960's.
As late as 1966, virtually every high school in New York City had a rifle team. Students used to carry their .22s on the subway, attracting about as much attention as the band kid with a trombone.
Yes, college students are adults, but your average judge is going to be thinking about all the drinking and debauchery and emotional immaturity that occurs on a college campus
As I remember, most of the students who party hearty tend to flunk out before they're old enough for a CHL. Note that the "no guns" policy also applies to faculty, who tend to be even older.
Maybe what we really need is some status between 'child' and 'adult' that applies to people from, say, ages 16-24. Better that than to keep nibbling away at what 'adult' means.
Almost all CHLs have to be 21.
I would very much like to see similar rules for airports and courthouses, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
In Texas you can carry into an airport, but not into the secured area.
Obama has found a new way to dry up the supply of ammunition for citizens and police, without having to go to Congress.
Quibble: "police" are a subset of "citizens."

According to a Washington Times editorial, "Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns."
3.17.2009 6:18pm
VaGunForum.net (mail) (www):
Thank you for supporting the second amendment. Concealed Carry has a lot of rules and fine lines that must be observed and one must know their rights in order to stay in the right side of the law. Some police officers don't know the law and assume that gun owners are criminals when they encounter them. Please take a moment to read about Concealed Carry and Open Carry in Virginia in order to familiarize yourself with the requirements. You can also ask questions and get clarifications that will help you to be a responsible citizen exercising your second amendment rights.
3.17.2009 8:00pm
Yankev (mail):

Quibble: "police" are a subset of "citizens."
Correct. They are also civilians. I wanted to emphasize that the brass shortage will affect even those whom Obama presumably would allow to have firearms. To the extent that the police are able to afford less practice, this ban makes us all less safe. To the extent it pushes up the cost of practice ammo for the police, it costs us all money. As does the fact that once-fired brass, in the form of casings, has a greater resale price than shredded brass.
3.18.2009 6:19pm

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