In the current Cato Unbound, Patri Friedman (grandson of Milton Friedman), argues that libertarians have failed in their efforts to promote a libertarian society through political activism, in large part because the system is stacked in favor of statism. Instead of seeking to reform existing states, he claims that libertarians should establish new states of their own. Such efforts have failed miserably in the past, but Friedman argues that the new technology of "seasteading" (establishing large, habitable platforms in the ocean) might make this strategy more viable. At the very least he claims that it's better than what he considers the hopeless task of trying to promote libertarianism within existing states:
I deeply yearn to live in an actual free society, not just to imagine a theoretical future utopia or achieve small incremental gains in freedom. For many years, I enthusiastically advocated for liberty under the vague assumption that advocacy would help our cause. However, I recently began trying to create free societies as my full-time job, and this has given me a dramatic perspective shift from my days of armchair philosophizing. My new perspective is that the advocacy approach which many libertarian individuals, groups, and think tanks follow (including me sometimes, sadly) is an utter waste of time.
Argument has refined our principles, and academic research has enlarged our understanding, but they have gotten us no closer to an actual libertarian state. Our debating springs not from calculated strategy, but from an intuitive “folk activism”: an instinct to seek political change through personal interaction, born in our hunter-gatherer days when all politics was personal. In the modern world, however, bad policies are the result of human action, not human design. To change them we must understand how they emerge from human interaction, and then alter the web of incentives that drives behavior. Attempts to directly influence people or ideas without changing incentives, such as the U.S. Libertarian Party, the Ron Paul campaign, and academic research, are thus useless for achieving real-world liberty.
I question Friedman's key assumption that promoting libertarianism in existing societies through research and activism is "an utter waste of time." It certainly has not been as effective as he and I would like. But it has nonetheless led to important victories for freedom. For example, as I discuss in my recent debate with Sandy Levinson, there were important reductions in the size and scope of government in the 1980s and 1990s, many of them traceable in part to advocacy by libertarian scholars and movements. Even more impressive reductions in government power were achieved in nations such as Ireland and New Zealand during the same period.
Ironically, Patri Friedman's grandfather Milton Friedman was one of the best examples of the impact of libertarian advocacy on policy. Among other things, Milton Friedman's efforts, combined with those of other libertarians, played a key role in ending the draft, one of the greatest infringements on individual liberty in modern American history. Friedman also helped influence many governments around the world in the direction of adopting relatively more free market economic policies.
To say this is in no way denies that we are still very far from achieving a truly libertarian society. And at the moment, we are obviously moving in the wrong direction. It does, however, suggest that libertarian political action can be effective, even in spite of the many ways in which the system is biased against it.
Does that mean that libertarians should reject Patri Friedman's "seasteading" proposal out of hand? I don't think so. If the technology is viable, the idea may deserve support. Although we can and should work to reform existing governments, Friedman is right to point out that we need more competition in the market for government. If seasteading begins to attract productive citizens away from existing states, it might pressure the latter to allow greater freedom.
A countervailing factor is that a libertarian "seasteading" state might not be as free of the power of existing governments as Friedman supposes. He claims that the latter cannot be reformed in a libertarian direction because of poor incentive structures. But those same perverse incentives might lead them to use force to eliminate seasteading projects - especially if the seasteads appear to be potential rivals. Existing states might suppress seasteads if the latter start attracting too many productive citizens and investment capital away from them. The Law of the Sea Treaty defines the ocean as a "common heritage of mankind" that cannot be claimed by any one nation or group. Existing governments or the United Nations could easily use this clause of the treaty to justify suppressing attempts to establish a libertarian state on the high seas. Friedman and his Seasteading Institute try to answer this objection on their website.They make some good points, but I am not entirely convinced. And they themselves concede that seasteads will be extremely vulnerable to naval attack, especially in their earlier stages.
In sum, Patri Friedman understates the utility of political action within existing states and perhaps underrates the likelihood that those same existing states might foil his attempt to establish a new one. But it is too early to conclude that his proposal is unworthy of support. I, for one, would like to see more analysis and evidence.
"They hire you to keep the peace here".
Too bad we can't try a little further away, like the far side of the moon.
One of the big problems is that a group of Libertarians tend to be much less "like minded" than one would think. They differ over issues like the relationship between children and adults, the legal status of incest, whether abortion is murder or not, and so on. One group incests on what they consider reasonable moral norms and other is upset that they are being coerced.
Although most groups don't even get to the point where that problem kills them.
If the seastead is built anywhere near any country's economic zone, there will almost certainly be territorial claims made and attempts at enforcing those claims. If it's not near any economic zone, I don't see how it can be economically viable. I can't think of any isolated islands out in the middle of nowhere that can support a developed economy without being subsidized.
If they can convince the U.S. government to offer military protection and recognize the sovereignty of the seastead, then that's another story entirely...
A natural elite arises and governs. I don't think you could find this anywhere else, however, but it does show that such a system is at least theoretically possible.
It depends on how you define "radical libertarianism." But the history of people with voting with their feet suggests that many do like the benefits of living in states with relatively minimal governments. Consider Hong Kong and Singapore in recent years, and the nineteenth century US (which had a fairly minimal government by modern and even contemporary standards), all of which are or were magnets for immigrants.
It is true that most people won't vote for strongly libertarian policies in an election. However, as I discuss in this post, this is partly attributable to widespread political ignorance. On average, increasing political knowledge while holding other variables constant makes opinion on most issues much more libertarian.
So if people weren't ignorant, they would think like you?
Perhaps we can get the point across with a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 a nonexistent state and 10 a completely statist regime. It may be that most people prefer living in a 5 to living in a 6 or a 7. But my sense is that Friedman (and perhaps you) theorize about the existence of a 2.
Bioshock was exactly what I thought of when I read this.
I thought that it was a dumb idea then and as I'm no longer in college, even more so today.
/Ogre
That's a silly distortion of what I wrote. To repeat, I said that increasing political knowledge while controlling other variables makes people, on average, more libertarian than they were before. That's not the same as saying they would hold exactly the same views as I do.
I think the disconnect is that the people who are most likely to succeed at seasteading are the ones motivated by a love of the ocean or of building things. These types would likely be willing to move forward with the project of building a floating house even if (heaven forbid!) it means sacrificing some abstract political ideal.
People for whom seasteading is an essentially political activity are less likely to succeed, in my estimation. Maybe its because they have a harder time shaking down money from rich donors. Who among our society's rich would-be benefactors wants to be associated with a fringe political movement?
Friedman isn't advocating an "anarchist society." His seasteading proposals include government, just a government with much more limited functions than currently existing states.
Perhaps we can get the point across with a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 a nonexistent state and 10 a completely statist regime. It may be that most people prefer living in a 5 to living in a 6 or a 7. But my sense is that Friedman (and perhaps you) theorize about the existence of a 2.
Maybe the majority of people wouldn't want to live in what you call a 2. Friedman actually notes this in his essay that I linked. That, however, says little about the viability of Friedman's proposal - which presumably would be populated by self-selected people whose views are much more libertarian than those of the median voter.
I would also note that, relative to most existing states, Hong Kong, Singapore, and the 19th century US were closer to being a 2 on the 10 point scale than a 5 or 6. Yet they attracted numerous immigrants.
However, I suggest people read the FAQs on the seasteading website for more info. I
n the case of Seasteading, though there's massive practical problems with the idea, the theoretical idea is completely sound by economic theory.
People are thinking of idealistic communes and what not. While certain seasteads may certainly be those, infact most might be, that is the CONTENT and SPECIFICITY of one seastead. The institution (if i can call it that) of seasteading is basically like a "Small Business Administration" helping you launch your own seastead to try your model of society or government. Its a model that tries to directly affect the COST OF ENTRY into government. You can have your very own voluntary socialist seastead, a communist seastead, a stoner seastead, and an anarcho-capitalist seastead.
The model is to provide competition, and again, reduce massively the cost of entry into government and social experimentation by extending the frontier possibly to infinity.
And i believe, understood this way, it would be criminal for libertarians NOT to support this idea unless they can think of better ones.
Or at least wouldn't suspect that Patri somehow represents "mainstream" libertarian thought.
Have I run into you (figuratively, of course) at First Point on a good south swell?
To others:
Isn't this a description of L. Ron Hubbard's Sea org?
That was hardly peculiar to the '60s. Early American history is filled with utopian communes like Oneida. Some managed to last for quite a long time, but they didn't have much effect on outside society.
And Ilya, looking at 19th Century America, it appears to be the most protectionist country of its era when it comes to tariffs and infant industry protection, hardly libertarian mainstays. 19th c US was hardly a free trader.
Of course, on the other side of the coin, a sufficiently coercive state becomes oppressive and people try to make it freer. Prohibition is followed by lawbreaking; eventually the situation isn't tolerable, and Prohibition is repealed. Conventional church-on-Sunday Christianity is codified, blue laws and all -- until its replaced as people realize they really do want to buy liquor on Sunday.
It ends up as a somewhat random, equilibrating process. Like other equilibria, the states that are least probable, and have the shortest durations, are extreme states.
As I said, if you can just get rid of the people, the idea can work. Of course, if you assume that human nature remains human nature, then you have problems. Cf. Federalist 51 ("If men were angels, no government would be necessary.").
And very little sex, reproduction, or child-rearing (with the exception of new Ensigns.)
While the Navy may be a "society" in a technical sense, it's not what we're talking about.
The "common heritage of mankind" provisions of UNCLOS really only apply only to extraction of mineral resources (Part XI, section 2). UNCLOS specifically permits both the construction of artificial islands on the high seas by any state (Part VII, Article 87) and the right for any state to sail ships under its flags on the high seas (Part VII, Article 90). So if there is a country willing to let you fly its flag over it, you can have your floating platform or artificial island. And you can fish from it all you like, though you can't gather polymetallic nodules.
You are subject of the sovereignty of the flag state, of course . . . but said sovereignty is explicitly exclusive under UNCLOS (Part VII, Article 92). Since you can shop around for a flag of convenience, you have a reasonable chance of finding one that's going to be reasonably cooperative.
As a practical matter, anybody willing to commit an act of war against your flag state, or able to pressure your flag state into giving them permission to go after you, can mess you up. So you're going to have to balance your libertarianism with avoiding pissing off powerful countries too much.
You have to have a hook, and that means appealing to baser instincts. With food and shelter being subpar on a seastead, you are stuck with sex. So the key to commercial success on a seastead is to do things like prohibit citizenship to anyone with a communicable disease or more than 25% body fat. Unfortunately, that probably excludes a fair percentage of libertarians...
Actually, Milton Friedman had a great deal to do with ending the draft, as the linked article on this subject makes clear.
Singling out one policy does not give a complete picture of a country's general libertarianism. The 19th century US also had no federal income tax, very little regulation, and government spending at all levels that was well under 10% of GDP. Nor is it true that it was the most protectionist nation of its era. Prussia and a number of other European states were more protectionist, to say nothing of various Latin American states.
So, "Welcome to New Mogadishu, capital of Antipodal Somalia."
Space colonies would be similar. You think cities are smoker-unfriendly NOW...
Any organization attempting to colonize a marginal area is going to tend to be more statist, simply because there are important areas that the government simply can't afford to let go of, and the harsher the environment, the larger those areas are. A moon colony couldn't allow a rogue group of investors to take over all the hydroponics enterprises and jack up food prices, or start blocking off air cleaners to enhance sales of their own O2 rigs.
On top of that, in a harsh environment, a smaller number of "muckers" can really ruin everything. How many disaffected, unemployed moon-buggy tire repairmen does it take to stave in the dome wall? In a normal environment, we can afford to let people own things that blow up or go smash, because so long as it doesn't hurt anyone, who cares? And even if it does hurt someone, it probably doesn't hurt a lot of people, and so we can balance the freedom involved with the costs. But in a marginal environment, the first mucker can kill everyone. It's too late to say "gee, maybe we should have regulated ammonium nitrate more carefully" when the whole sea colony is beginning an unplanned ocean trench exploration.
One of the keys of libertarian government has to be spreading out; if a small number of individuals can wreck the whole system, the government really is obliged to stop them, which means in good conscience it can't turn over the freedoms that could lead to the death of everybody. Even our government won't let you go too far - just try building a nuclear bomb in your backyard and see how far you get. ;p
If you want to colonize an area for truly libertarian government, why not move to Wyoming? Big open spaces, relatively cheap, and it wouldn't take all that many libertarians to make a difference. Alaska could work too, if you're more cold-resistant than I am. (Houston native...)
Hope that in the future you can find a way to eliminate that. But be practical about risks/benefits in the meantime.
It has been, largely, the inability to do just that that has been the publicly visible failures with past projects. Of course, that's far from the only reason they've failed -- it's just the most obvious and visible.
The other possible problem is Tonga stealing your country.
I don't see libertarian colonization working until we have access to space, and the sort of self-reproducing technology which would enable every small group to be self-sufficient. So that you could dig into an outward bound comet, and just disappear from the notice of existing governments.
In the nineteenth century the U.S. government also provided massive subsidies to immigrants and anyone willing to move out west in the form of land grants. It also forcibly removed the previous residents of those lands, stealing their property and forcibly confining them to reservations while illegally and serially breaking treaties. Additionally, it encouraged the building of the transcontinental and lesser railroads through direct subsidy and land grants to railroad companies as well as directly undertaking massive flood control and navigation projects. They also granted the states ten percent of the land within their borders so they could create a public education system (probably the most brilliant move the Federal government ever made). Just because giving away most of the land that was bought in the Louisiana purchase was not booked as "government spending" doesn't mean it wasn't. To claim that these actions were libertarian in any way, shape or form is patently absurd.
Also, to claim that Singapore, a country that while it may be friendly to business, is one of the most socially restrictive countries on the face of the earth--where drug crimes routinely carry the death penalty, until recently chewing gum was illegal, not flushing a public toilet carries a hefty fine, and petty vandalism results in a caning is laughable.
But fantasizing about idealized societies, as opposed to working with other people to improve this society, is juvenile, solipsistic masturbation.
Even aside from these considerations, consider the way the ruling PAP party routinely uses libel lawsuits to bankrupt anyone with a sizable number of followers who criticizes them. As I understand it, truth is a defense to libel (this isn't North Korea, after all) but the burden of proof is on the defendant to justify his claims. I also don't believe there is any relaxation of the law when it concerns public figures.
What this means in practice is that a blog like the Volokh Conspiracy with its frequent sniping at elected officials would never survive in the long-run in Singapore. This isn't some inconsequential right like being able to chew gum but rather goes to the heart of what a free society is all about. Some people choose to make that trade-off by living in Singapore but a "2" on the libertarian index it most certainly is not. Yes, if you obey the law and don't piss off the wrong people, you can enjoy the good life in Singapore. The same might as well be said of the U.S.
Oh, and a sizable amount of residential real estate in the city-state is owned by the government. How is that for an "ownership society"?
No offence, but AFAIK this is the law everywhere. The plaintiff proves the elements of defamation, and the absence of a defence is not one of them. If the defendant claims one of the defences, they have to proffer evidence to back up their defence. That includes the defence of truth. That is why provoking a libel suit has been so useful in the past in order to obtain the opportunity to prove some fact.
And Ilya, in considering how "libertarian" the 19th century U.S. was, you might also consider slavery -- which lasted longer in the U.S. than in most comparable countries -- and later Jim Crow and related rules re blacks), policies toward native Americans, the strong power of courts, and state-level regulations.
Also, I'm with Guesty McGuesterson re the draft. It ended because the middle class didn't want their kids sent to fight disastrous wars like Viet Nam.
2. The kinds of libertarians that would be willing to engage in this venture will be precisely the types to loudly protest that their rights are being oppressed by a statist/fascist/communist authority when these regulations are enacted.
Well, my ancesters left Russia after the Bolsheviks took over. But they weren't libertarians -- indeed, they were Mensheviks, and they continued to have those sort of politics in the U.S.
More broadly, quite a few immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries came from very repressive political regimes, but that did not mean they were "libertarians" even in the ahistorical sense that word would have to be used. As many conservative nativists pointed out at the time, quite a few immigrants took up socialist, syndicalist, or other radical politics.
In short, it's not the case that fleeing poverty-stricken and/or totalitarian governments to come to the U.S. indicated that one supported what Ilya's ideological ancestors supported.
I believe he is thinking about how libertarian the 19th century U.S. was for someone like himself, a white Yale law school graduate, not for blacks, Native Americans, Asian immigrants, women or the working poor.
First, he would not have been permitted to attend Yale.
Which a true libertarian would support, since Yale, a private institution, should be able to admit, or reject, anyone it so desires, for whatever reason, logical or ill-considered.
I just was rebutting the assertion that 19th Century America was a place of great freedom for Russian immigrants - and being Jewish probably did not hurt (although Orthodox Christians were probably not on top of the party invite lists either).
"Well, my ancesters left Russia after the Bolsheviks took over. But they weren't libertarians -- indeed, they were Mensheviks, and they continued to have those sort of politics in the U.S."
I consider myself an American Menshevik, so I don't think there is as much daylight between the two as you imagine, given the alternatives, or if there is, perhaps we should join forces on that in which we agree, given the Bolsheviks and Czarists which threaten those things we hold most dear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand
"As I said, if you can just get rid of the people, the idea can work. Of course, if you assume that human nature remains human nature, then you have problems. Cf. Federalist 51 ("If men were angels, no government would be necessary.")."
Curious that you would cite an observation intended to answer questions about the viability of an experiment in limited government in order to question the viability of an experiment in limited government.
Do you suppose that Friedman would disagree with the Founders on this point?
So all those immigrants from Europe were motivated by the fact that there was no FDA or OSHA over here. Is that right? Nothing to do with serious oppression, poverty, famines, political upheavals, etc.
1) Who's going to finance a giant floating platform in the middle of the ocean?
2) Who the hell wants to move to one?
3) What are you going to base the economy off of? Spam?
How about a 'libertarian' party that sponsors government-limiting initiatives that are likely to pass, increasing liberty and gaining the party some credibility with the public at the same time? That runs people for 'unimportant' jobs like Selectman, establishing both an 'installed base' of local officials and a body of party workers able to handle bigger elections? And which, having done so, develops enough 'clout' to overcome election procedures that favor the established parties?
I don't think much can be done to save the LP, which has been a profoundly silly organisation for decades. But a new party that builds on local efforts might still succeed.
The point isn't to make The One True Libertarian Society. The point is to give choices to people as to what form of government they would like. One seastead might think that abortion is a fundamental right, another might think that it is a fundamental evil. If you don't care, either one works for you, but if you do care, you can choose accordingly.
Productive people tend to have property, except for the very young. This kind of thing might work for college graduates looking at a poor economy.
I don't see anyone trying to stop him. I do see a lot of people arguing that his idea is extremely foolish and wildly impractical. I agree with those commenters. Seasteading strikes me as utterly silly.
But if he thinks he can prove me wrong, fine. I have no objection to his trying.
Strictly speaking, there's no reason a space colony has to be an eggshell, and even less reason for a sea colony to be that fragile.
The chief problem really is that you need a product that can't be produced elsewhere, which basically implies your economy being centered on products or services most countries have deliberately chosen to make illegal. Countries that have armed forces.
I don't see gathering a lot of libertarians together in one place so they can be efficiently drowned as a good way to advance the cause of liberty, snark aside.
And some people have trouble separating actual libertarian thought from some vague notion hey got from a newspaper article.
From spending just a few minutes at the seasteading site, the idea isn't to make One City where everyone agrees. It's to have multiple modular cities that people can physically detach from if they get fed up enough.
I'm highly unlikely to go live on a seastead, but I think some people are misstating the problem in order to make it easier to mock.
Who Pinochet or Friedman? There is ample record of both, but back to Sealab 2021!
We hope to develop the idea of competitive government further and we'd love to have your input.
Thanks!
www.athousandnations.com
For example?
[The idea is] to have multiple modular cities that people can physically detach from if they get fed up enough.
Stating the problem accurately makes it even easier to mock.
Perhaps I misunderstand you, and if so, apologies, but. . . .
I've also called myself an American Menshevik, at least in a casual sense. But I think the social-democracy tradition that the Mensheviks were in is a pretty different one than the libertarian tradition. Of course, they could find common cause against the Bolsheviks. But my point was being an opponent of totalitarianism does not make one a libertarian, or whatever the equivalent was at the time.
When Ilya claims that the lack of regulation in the US was a major attraction for immigrants then yes, I think it's a sequitur.
Immigrants certainly saw the US as a place where they would be better off than at home, by definition. But to suggest that many had great familiarity with the financial and regulatory operations of the US government, and that these were a major consideration in deciding to come here, seems awfully far-fetched to me.
Immigrants didn't need to have "great familiarity with the financial and regulatory operations of the US government"; they just needed to see the results. Namely, a lot less "serious oppression, poverty, famines, political upheavals, etc."
I don't see how privatizing formerly government-owned lands is nonlibertarian. Indeed, the giving away of land acquired by the US in the West to private citizens was one of the largest privatizations in world history. Would it have been more libertarian for the government to keep owning them? As for the "public education system" created by federal land grants, yes a few state universities were created that way in the 19th century. But only a tiny fraction of the population attended them until well into the 20th century.
I did not claim that immigrants had "great familiarity" with the "financial and regulatory" operations of the US government. Merely that they saw the benefits of these institutions (with or without understanding the details) and therefore flocked to them. Certainly, they were not deterred by the strong relative libertarianism of US institutions, which is the claim made by Orin that I responded to (he argued that no one would want to join a polity with "radical libertarian" policies).
I also suspect that a majority of seasteads would end up being formed by cult-like groups that seek freedom to engage in behavior normally outlawed or disapproved of by their home states. Any libertarian seastead would end up being lumped together with these other seasteads.
Oh, and then pirates would attack and steal anything of value...
"I've also called myself an American Menshevik, at least in a casual sense. But I think the social-democracy tradition that the Mensheviks were in is a pretty different one than the libertarian tradition. Of course, they could find common cause against the Bolsheviks. But my point was being an opponent of totalitarianism does not make one a libertarian, or whatever the equivalent was at the time."
I'm just saying if one flees from a society where the only two options on offer are the tyranny of the few (the Czar and the Orthodox Church) or the many (the Bolsheviks), one might not even be aware of the option of shackling tyranny itself, or at least one might not consider that option practical, whereas the American experience was, and to some extent still is, predicated on that very prospect, pace D'Tocqueville, Uncle Miltie, et. al.
I think its a mistake to equate a limited government of checks and balances, a Bill of Rights, etc. with small government necessarily, although there may be some correlation between the two, as those seeking inordinate power, noting the limits, turn elsewhere to ply their trade. Bottom line: If you're a friend of a social democracy appropriately realistic in its aims on the hunt for enemies thereof, I don't think libertarians are the droids you're looking for.
The intriguing thing for me is to read, say, Alinsky as if he were a man who'd never heard of libertarianism, which may have actually been the case - no doubt he didn't take it seriously if he did - there is some striking common ground.
I'm not in the business of hunting for enemies, and my son would dig the Star Wars reference. But you might consider making your point to the libertarian-right folks who post on this blog (as commenters and Conspirators) who seem to think that European social democracy -- or even Obama's marginal increases in top marginal tax rates -- is the enemy, well down the slippery slope to Bolshevik totalitarianism.
Oh, to reimburse successful defendents in criminal cases for their costs, to do away with sovereign immunity at the state level except for those, like jurors, whose state service is forced, to institute a 'loser pays' tort system, to require the state to pay for the direct cost of complying with its laws... there are lots of possibilities for laws that will never get through state legislatures but might still meet with public approval.
This reminds me of some of the practical naivete you see among economists, who always assume a perfectly rational actor lies at the heart of human choice. People, e.g. buy Chevron gas instead of 76 because the price is lower, or the gas is better, or the station is more convenient, or some other rational reason, as opposed to because their parents always did.
Alas, such irrationality is quite strong among H. sapiens.
Here, Kerr believes -- naively, I would say -- that people vote for the government that they believe, rationally and accurately, matches their desires. Hence we can infer from what do they vote for? to what kind of goverment do they want?
By me, that's goofy. But maybe that's because I have teenagers, and if I applied the same logic to them -- they behave like obnoxious coked-up mustangs because they really believe that's the best way to make friends -- I would have to conclude they're psychotic.
I think reasonable people, not soaked in Broca's Area rationality to the point of dissolving common sense, recognize that it is perfectly possible -- indeed, likely, alas -- that what people vote for does not, for a wide variety of reasons, correspond identically to what they want. How bad the mismatch is an interesting question. In some cases -- the 1933 elections in Germany spring to mind, say, or perhaps the 1856 election in the United States -- it seems very likely indeed that people voted for something other than what, using the magic retrospectroscope, they could have foreseen they were getting.
In others...who knows? But there's certainly plenty of room for the libertarian thesis that people don't vote for libertarian principles as often as they would if they had a clearer and better understanding of what they want in a governing system, and how to get it.
Another, simpler way of putting this is: advertising works, in the sense that, near the margin, it can induce you to buy stuff you don't really want. Since it works with shampoo, we may presume ipso facto it works with political candidates, too.
Since furthermore a libertarian candidate for substantial political power is almost an oxymoron, most candidates for big-time political power are statists. Since they indulge heavily in advertising, and we assume advertising works -- makes people to some unknown degree more likely to act against their self-interest and in the advertiser's interest -- the conclusion is inescapable that the government for which people actually vote is inevitably more statist than the one they really want. How much more we don't know. That's where the interesting argument lies.
But assuming you can straightforwardly infer what people want from how they vote seems, well, a bit naive, for someone living in the 21st century, who has been paying attention to the social psychology learned in the last century.
The real problem is that any vessel not flagged, is considered state-less, and may be boarded or seized by any state. That's the rational used to board the North Korean ship carrying missiles a few years back. Any armed resistance to state action is, of course, piracy. While pirates may have a romantic appeal, I doubt most libertarians would want to live under such a system.
"But you might consider making your point to the libertarian-right folks who post on this blog (as commenters and Conspirators) who seem to think that European social democracy -- or even Obama's marginal increases in top marginal tax rates -- is the enemy, well down the slippery slope to Bolshevik totalitarianism."
Did the thought ever occur to you that that is exactly what I'm doing? A frontal attack is not always the optimal course, or even an attack, as the case may be. In the perfect world, there are all sorts of things about European and/or American style social democracy that I'd rather were, let's say, more limited, but one goes to war with the liberal democracy one has, not the one one wishes one had.
Or, alternatively, one strikes out to start a new one, as the original pilgrims did, and the founders rechristened, and as the subject of this post proposes to do, or one joins a relatively newer one, as my ancestors did, or one that actually exists, as yours did, I take it. Given the tenor of this thread, I'm beginning to develop a curiosity regarding the prospects of Indian (the one in, you know, India) liberal democracy, frankly.
Either I've failed to convey what I meant properly or you've failed to interpret it properly.
Bringing out the utopian argument (which 'if men were angels..' is) is far too easy. Economic THEORY, I think you would agree (at least the one that most economists agree one, hold your jokes) does fairly accurately take into account ACTUAL human beings, not angels. So 'only-if-men-were-angels' argument is useless in this case. You only need to see Government as an industry which is a monopoly, thereby predictably producing bad products for consumers.
Once you accept this model, its a straightforward case to be made that COMPETITION will be beneficial for this industry. The competition brings out trial and error. Nobody knows that a libertarian society will turn out to provide the best utilitarian results ex-ante. Only after trial and error with hundreds of (hopefully) seasteads with different communities and societies will the best model for humanity be clear (maybe even not then but it will be better than now).
NOTE that this reduces BARRIERS TO ENTRY. Again, nothing to do with men being angels. Reduction in barriers to entry is good for competition and ultimately, for consumers.
So theoretically, with non-angel humans, this will work.
Now practically, the problems are those of successfully playing chicken with large governments, and overcoming engineering problems, and attracting a significant set of early adopters.
Again, I encourage people to read the FAQ. Most of these arguments and queries are discussed in there.
North Korea supposedly runs an open registry. North Korea is pretty unlikely to cooperate with the U.S. government. North Korea is pretty unlikely to send a naval force to the Atlantic . . .
I don't particularly think that absolute freedom is the goal, but rather to transform the constitutional principles our country was founded on and bring them into compliance with the ideas libertarians espouse. Creating some Utopian society from scratch may sound tempting, but the real glory is in manipulating what presently exists, convincing the masses that you're correct, and improving upon an already great country. At least, in my opinion.
The best courses of action are:
- Geographic concentration, a la Free State Project. On its own it doesn't make much of a difference, but as a prototype it would be quite valuable, either as a model for the rest of the country (success) or as a harsh lesson on why libertarianism isn't practical (failure). (Side notes: If you aren't willing to relocate within the country for them, are your political views really that important to you? And if you're fine with the idea of moving to a sea platform, why not go through the much easier step of relocating within the U.S.?)
- Cultural influence on younger generation. The Daily Show for libertarians. You can't count on the education system broadening people's horizons. Quite the opposite.
I'd go with video games as the medium of choice, myself. Role playing games or simulations where you can experience first-hand the effects of government on society. It's hard for people reared by the government's educational institutions to be faithful left-wingers to understand why wealth redistribution reduces quality of life for society as a whole. So you put them in situations in video games where they can see the cause-effect chain and experience the negative consequences directly.
A very simple browser game might put the player at the helm of a large auto manufacturer. You pay no taxes of any kind, have no regulations and no unions to worry about. That's level 1. You make lots of money. Then taxes are thrown in. Players will find themselves angry at the high corporate tax rate and furious when they see politicians bad-mouthing them, demanding "windfall taxes" and other hikes.
In successive levels, you start adding other stuff that bites your bottom line: CAFE standards that force you to sell things that people don't want and make less of the stuff that does sell. Unions that are never satisfied with their piece of the pie and strike when they aren't compensated far beyond their worth. And so on.
Once you've gone through all that, you can play as a small, start-up auto company, although you'll immediately see that because of government-imposed overhead (crash tests, legal costs, etc.), it's not possible for a small car company to exist, which is why all our car companies are "too big to fail."
"a few state universities"?! Don't you mean over seventy institutions of higher education in all fifty states including some of the most respected research institutions in the world (including UC Berkeley, The University of Illinois, Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan State).
Likewise, though likely for very different reasons, living in a densely populated society also historically engenders more statist forms of government.
A successful libertarian state would likely need to be a frontier society with an abundance of productive land and a relatively sparse population, allowing each household to effectively be its own ministate with narrowly defined connections to the larger society.
It dawned on me reading these comments that true liberty will only ever be obtained in the New World, New Frontier, or the Wild West, not as organized movements, but as individuals desiring to go where control hasn't been established yet. And after that period, as establishment grows, ever-increasing control is inevitable. Sounds scarily Marxist.
So let's get those hyperdrives created so we can live out in space Firefly style.
Some harsh environment.
Though I think Neil has a point that MMORPG's can be a powerful tutor in economic practice, rather than mere theory alone. Heck, for millions they already have, although we're hardly in Snow Crash territory yet.
To be honest, I wasn't entirely sure what points you were trying to make to whom -- no snark intended, I'll take responsbility for not getting it. And I'll also take your word on what you meant.
It's similar to folks who believe in past lives. They never see themselves as a dolt, thief, or average-Joe. They were someone famous.
My favorite comment so far is the idea of reforming the Libertarian Party. How, exactly would you do that? Take a vote and impose majority will on the rest of the members? heh
Here's my (relatively snark-free 2 cents): Stop claiming that all small government ideas are libertarian or that anyone you agree with philosophically is "good" (and therefore libertarian) and that everyone you disagree with and is "bad" (is not a libertarian). Coopting the langauge and revising history to make libertarians out of people who clearly weren't, would go a long way in bringing about some of the goals. It would require that you drop the libertarian banner.
Libertarian, as a label, has come to be associated with nut cases, hippie/free love causes, and fanciful, fantastical thinking. Drop the term, just as real liberals can no longer call themselves that because communists and socialists have coopted the word to describe their agenda.
When given the opportunity to organize and show their strength, a huge number of libertarians flooded the first town hall meeting with demands that the President legalize drugs. Oh, that goes a long way in helping the libertarian cause and presenting an association with libertarians as advocates for liberty, instead of proponents of libertinism. Given what is going on in the world, THAT is the their most pressing issue? heh It just proves they're not serious.
There is always a balance to be struck between an individual's desire for unfettered actions and the intentional or unintentional consequences of his actions on others. Libertarianism has become synonymous with a failure to accept the concept of a social compact, while at the same time believing that a social compact among libertarians will exist (voluntarily) and create Utopia. Name one commune type experiment that actually lasted more than a single generation, or didn't morph into the worst extreme of a totalitarian extreme.... that's what happens when a thousand Captain Jack Black wannabes find out everyone else doesn't want to be the sidekick.
I wouldn't be so sure; the Jones Act has surprising reach, particularly given the right/wrong judge, and might grab the seasteaders anyway.
"To be honest, I wasn't entirely sure what points you were trying to make to whom"
While we're being honest, I'll admit that neither was I. Just calling them as I see them. I do see libertarians of good faith functioning as the white blood cells of a healthy social democracy - keeping the government focused on those things it does well and should well do and raising the alarm when it oversteps its bounds in antisocial/antidemocratic ways.
"Name one commune type experiment that actually lasted more than a single generation, or didn't morph into the worst extreme of a totalitarian extreme.... that's what happens when a thousand Captain Jack Black wannabes find out everyone else doesn't want to be the sidekick."
Um, the state of Utah?
Why the assumption that it would be a commune? And if we're liberals, we should have the stones to call ourselves liberals, as past liberals have, facing more dire consequences than those we now face for doing so.
As long as you correctly distinguish between "leftist" (or "conservative") and "liberal".
"As long as you correctly distinguish between "leftist" (or "conservative") and "liberal"."
Always. Which is why at times I opt for the less apt "libertarian", though I prefer liberal, in the tradition of Socrates, Cato, Franklin, Burke, and Berlin.
Except that Burke was a conservative, ie, "The Father of Modern Conservatism." Franklin and the Founders referred to themselves as a (small R) "republican." That was my point. Revising history and categorizing historical heroes with the label "libertarian" is just wrong headed. If they labeled themselves, we might want to respect that, because it also gives a great big clue into how they felt about things.
"The catholic principle of republicanism [is] that every people may establish what form of government they please and change it as they please, the will of the nation being the only thing essential." --Thomas Jefferson
"Conservative" has also come to mean something else, as in "right-wing religious extremist." Secular-conservatism is a political ideology (championed by Burke). There is also religious-conservatism, but it is not the same thing at all. Classical liberals don't want to be misunderstood to be "progressives" (the more accurate label to describe them). Classical conservatives don't want to be associated with the extremism of religious conservatives. But libertarian has its own meaning, and it is neither classical -conservative nor -liberal.
Run that Jefferson quote by libertarians and you'll find that most don't agree with it at all, believing (instead) that there are aspects of government that should be denied to the people. How they intend to enforce those limits is always the interesting (and humorous and hypocritical) bit, requiring contortions of force they are supposed to be against.
For folks who think that the Founding Fathers were libertarians, consider how Jefferson and Madison would regard the writings of Spooner:
"The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves; a contest, that -- however bloody -- can, in the nature of things, never be finally closed, so long as man refuses to be a slave." --Lysander Spooner
"The first principle of republicanism is that the lex majoris partis is the fundamental law of every society of individuals of equal rights; to consider the will of the society enounced by the majority of a single vote as sacred as if unanimous is the first of all lessons in importance, yet the last which is thoroughly learnt. This law once disregarded, no other remains but that of force, which ends necessarily in military despotism." --Thomas Jefferson
Utah was a commune-type experiment that lasted more than a generation: satisfying the stipulations of your question.
Burke was a Whig - the Liberal Party, not a Tory, the Conservative Party of its day. That he is, by some, acknowledged to be the founder of modern conservatism does not make him thereby less liberal, as modern conservatism is by any lights far more liberal than even the Liberal Party of Burke's day, and a good thing too. If you don't consider Franklin a liberal, you lack even the most rudimentary understanding of the meaning of the term.
The definition of conservative you offer is obscene, and illustrates more vividly your own bigotry than any true sense of the facts at hand.
Your contest of quotes ignores entirely the Bill of Rights or the importance of checks and balances to protect minority rights advocated by Madison and accepted, perhaps under duress, by Jefferson, although I never took him to be a friend of tyranny, even the tyranny of a majority of his fellow citizens, given the Declaration.
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