pageok
pageok
pageok
NCAA Meets Facebook:

From the Associated Press:

Taylor Moseley, a North Carolina State freshman who expressed a common-enough opinion on campus when he started the Facebook group called "John Wall PLEASE come to NC STATE!!!!"

More than 700 people signed up for the group encouraging Wall — a local standout and the nation's No. 1 basketball recruit — to pick the Wolfpack by national signing day next week.

But the NCAA says such sites, and dozens more like them wooing Wall and other top recruits, violate its rules. More than just cheerleading boards, the NCAA says the sites are an attempt to influence the college choice of a recruit.

Moseley got a cease and desist letter from N.C. State's compliance director, Michelle Lee, warning of "further action" if he failed to comply. In an interview Friday, Lee said that people who act as boosters but fail to follow recruiting guidelines could face penalties such as being denied tickets or even being formally "disassociated" from the athletic program.

Adam Kissel, director of the Individual Rights Defense Program at the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, said the NCAA can impose rules on its member colleges. But universities -— especially public ones -— can't enforce them if it means punishing students in any way for expressing an opinion.

"A student doesn't lose First Amendment rights because of a contract the university signs with (the NCAA)," he said....

I'm with Kissel (and Aden Fine of the ACLU, also quoted) on this.

Thanks to Ben Riley for the pointer.

Noah David Simon (mail) (www):
it might be different if a person worked for the college in a position of power... but student free expression should be untouchable. is this is a public funded college?
4.14.2009 1:58am
BRM:
If the school can't stop the behavior, then can the NCAA legitimately sanction the school for the existence of these sites?
4.14.2009 2:08am
Dan M.:
That's stupid. College sports message boards have had topics for years where fans started topics to influence individual recruits. But since posters on message boards post under screen names, the schools can't take any action, but apparently posting on Facebook under your real name gives them a target. Shall we also sanction students who hold signs and start chants for recruits who attend sporting events?

NCAA rules are ridiculous.
4.14.2009 3:32am
hawkins:

is [North Carolina State] a public funded college?


Surely you're kidding
4.14.2009 7:32am
common sense (www):
The NCAA is completely corrupt and incompetent. It was one thing when they were coordinating in game rules so that schools could play each other. Now it's a billion dollar cartel making money on underpaid professional athletes.
4.14.2009 7:52am
Phil17 (mail):
I'd like to see more discussion of the point raised by BRM.

Eugene, you said you agree with Kissel. While I'll guess you were referring to his second point (that the student cannot be deprived of First Amendment rights), Kissel also said, without qualification, that "the NCAA can impose rules on its member colleges".

Is this really true? Can an institution impose rules that provide for sanctions in the event that a member institution fails to illegally abrogate the First Amendment Rights of a student? IANAL, but I would guess this issue has been addressed. I'll be surprised if the settled answer is yes.
4.14.2009 7:52am
John Armstrong (mail) (www):
hawkins: it might not be so obvious as you think. Is the University of Pennsylvania public or private?
4.14.2009 8:23am
Loophole (mail):
What if a secret University of North Carolina fan started a similar website for the sole purpose of getting NC State in trouble? NC State couldn't do anything about that, but it would have the same effect on the broader world.
4.14.2009 8:52am
hawkins:

hawkins: it might not be so obvious as you think. Is the University of Pennsylvania public or private?


It does not include the word "state" in the name.
4.14.2009 9:03am
Dissassociated:
My father was a big booster of a big football school in the south. He was "dissassociated" from the athletic program by the school, under instructions from the NCAA, because he was giving jobs to players and lobbying them. Afterwards, he just gave them cash.... or their families cash... or their girlfriends cash. He was still in almost daily contact with the AD and worked closely with them -- just with plausible deniability. The whole system is a joke.
4.14.2009 9:22am
Xenocles (www):
"It does not include the word "state" in the name."

Neither does the University of Massachusetts, the University of New Hampshire, the University of Hawaii, nor several other such schools. Is the College of William and Mary private or public? (It's public.) You're being awfully priggish for someone who missed what was probably sarcasm but was at least a rhetorical question.
4.14.2009 9:44am
Dissassociated:
Hawkins:

California State University Monterey Bay
California Polytechnic State University

One is public and one is private.... tell which?

How about:

New York State College of Ceramics
4.14.2009 9:48am
Matt P (mail):
How does punishing the student violate his rights to free speech? He can still say whatever he wants, but the school is under no obligation to allow him to buy tickets or have him associated with the sports program. I agree that the NCAA is ridiculous (they never seem to find this kind of violation with the water polo teams) and the school is acting poorly in this case, but legally isn't there a difference between not allowing the student the use of privileges and actively punishing a student?
4.14.2009 10:08am
Bob White (mail):

Shall we also sanction students who hold signs and start chants for recruits who attend sporting events?

My understanding is that the NCAA would like to, but doesn't believe that they can.


Kissel also said, without qualification, that "the NCAA can impose rules on its member colleges".

As a general point, the answer is yes. I believe the interpretation is that the rules restricting recruiting speech, which are NCAA rules the schools adopt as part of their membership in that voluntary organization, apply to employees of schools and something like affiliates of the school, which term includes boosters and students.

Another point-the NCAA consists of more than schools that recruit football and/or men's basketball at a high level, and there's a certain divide with those schools and schools that don't recruit those sports at a high level, and also between the representatives who come from other sports.
4.14.2009 10:08am
Andrew J. Lazarus (mail):
CSU Monterey Bay and Cal Poly (SLO/Pomona) are all public schools.
4.14.2009 10:28am
SP:
The overwhelming majority of schools mentioning state names in their titles are public, and the posters tut-tutting Hawkins know this.
4.14.2009 11:00am
George Smith:
If he is the nation's no. 1 basketball recruit, he'll only be there for one year anyway, so why the fuss?
4.14.2009 11:12am
hawkins:

"It does not include the word "state" in the name."

Neither does the University of Massachusetts, the University of New Hampshire, the University of Hawaii, nor several other such schools.


You need to work on your logical reasoning.


California State University Monterey Bay
California Polytechnic State University


Give me a break. I stand by my comment that everyone should KNOW (or at least be able to figure out) that North Carolina State is indeed a state school. We're talking about a well known ACC school
4.14.2009 11:23am
Malvolio:
California State University Monterey Bay
California Polytechnic State University

One is public and one is private.... tell which?
What was the middle one again?

CSU-MB and CalPoly are both part of the (public) California State University system.

There are several private universities whose names contain the names of states (University of Pennsylvania is probably the most prominent), but I am unaware of any private universities with the literal word "State" in its name.

There's a University of Washington and a Washington University -- only one is public.
4.14.2009 11:37am
hawkins:

California State University Monterey Bay
California Polytechnic State University


As others have already pointed out, both appear to be state schools.


New York State College of Ceramics


This one too
4.14.2009 11:50am
Phil17 (mail):

If he is the nation's no. 1 basketball recruit, he'll only be there for one year anyway, so why the fuss?


Syracuse was unranked in the pre-season (2002-2003) yet rode one year of Camello Anthony to a National Championship. That's what one year of a very good player can do.
4.14.2009 12:38pm
Ken Arromdee:
Can an institution impose rules that provide for sanctions in the event that a member institution fails to illegally abrogate the First Amendment Rights of a student?

They can impose sanctions based on completely arbitrary reasons. They could roll a die and impose sanctions on any university for which the die comes up a 6, even though the university has no power to influence the die roll. So I don't see why not.

Of course, doing this would impose sanctions for no purpose at all, since universities wouldn't be allowed to give in to the sanctions and they'd just be imposing sanctions on all publically funded universities.
4.14.2009 12:38pm
George Smith:
Some years ago, my hometown had two MacDonalds All-Americans. Boosters put up billboards all over town urging the two players to attend the local university. The local U was an Elite Eight team that year, and that plus the public campaign did the trick. Would the billboards would be illegal now?

The idea that Carmello Anthony, or Michael Beasley at Kansas State, or any other "one and done", was an actual university student is a joke. They were semi-pro players, hired to do a job for a year. I love college basketball, but I would rather watch mid-major and small conference games played by college students.
4.14.2009 2:35pm
Shelby (mail):
Possibly the NCAA could enforce its rules against private members but not public ones. I can't imagine the private universities would be terribly happy about that outcome....
4.14.2009 2:37pm
Le Messurier (mail):
I'm surely whistling in the wind, and many others have undoubtedly asked before, but isn't the NCAA subject to anti-trust laws? If not, they should be. They have done more harm to amateur sports than any one or thing I can think of. The Ivy League model would be a good one to follow nation wide. Just de-emphasize athletics, and let the best athletes win
4.14.2009 3:18pm
Dissassociated:
I submit to correction... in my defense, the source I had said those 3 were private. Mea culpa.
4.14.2009 3:54pm
ronnie dobbs (mail):

What if a secret University of North Carolina fan started a similar website for the sole purpose of getting NC State in trouble? NC State couldn't do anything about that, but it would have the same effect on the broader world.


Why would we bother? It's only State.
4.14.2009 5:53pm
Soronel Haetir (mail):
On the topic of arbitrary rules, I would have thought such agreements would be void when the agreement would require one party to commit an illegal act in order to not run afoul of the agreement. Certainly I would think there would be a major public policy argument in that direction.
4.14.2009 6:26pm
Tim Nuccio (www):
Glad to see your support. The NCAA has gone too far.

They already stole my university's mascot, Chief Illiniwek. Now they're on a rampage against free speech.
4.15.2009 9:56pm
MikeT:

Why would we bother? It's only State.


As a State alum, I was waiting for that. The important part of the story seems to be missing, any chance this kid picks the Wolfpack?
4.15.2009 10:47pm
grodieddy (mail) (www):
emm.. nice
4.15.2009 11:55pm

Post as: [Register] [Log In]

Account:
Password:
Remember info?

If you have a comment about spelling, typos, or format errors, please e-mail the poster directly rather than posting a comment.

Comment Policy: We reserve the right to edit or delete comments, and in extreme cases to ban commenters, at our discretion. Comments must be relevant and civil (and, especially, free of name-calling). We think of comment threads like dinner parties at our homes. If you make the party unpleasant for us or for others, we'd rather you went elsewhere. We're happy to see a wide range of viewpoints, but we want all of them to be expressed as politely as possible.

We realize that such a comment policy can never be evenly enforced, because we can't possibly monitor every comment equally well. Hundreds of comments are posted every day here, and we don't read them all. Those we read, we read with different degrees of attention, and in different moods. We try to be fair, but we make no promises.

And remember, it's a big Internet. If you think we were mistaken in removing your post (or, in extreme cases, in removing you) -- or if you prefer a more free-for-all approach -- there are surely plenty of ways you can still get your views out.