That seems to be so, under New York City Administrative Code § 10-303 (at least with some narrow exceptions), as interpreted by the New York Police Department. Does anyone whether there are other rules that might keep this from being the case?
Query: If the Second Amendment is incorporated against the states, can this be constitutional? As I noted with regard to a much less restrictive Illinois limit on 18-to-20-year-olds, the age of majority has indeed historically been 21 until the early 1970s, though now it's 18 virtually everywhere, including in New York.
Would the right to keep and bear arms not fully apply to under-21-year-olds, the way some constitutional rights today don't fully apply to under-18-year-olds (consider the right to sexual autonomy, the right to marry, the right to abortion, which could be limited through certain kinds of parental consent laws, and likely the right to bear arms itself)? Or does the right apply to all adult citizens — unless otherwise disqualified by reason of felony conviction or the like — under today's age of majority, regardless of what the age of majority was at the time? Or has the right always extended to everyone 18 and above, regardless of the age of majority for other purposes?
These questions would also have some importance in other states that allow long gun possession for 18-to-20-year-olds but ban handgun possession until age 21, and also as to the federal government, which makes handguns harder for under-21-year-olds to get.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Under-21-Year-Olds Banned from Possessing Any Firearms in New York City?
- Under-21-Year-Olds and Guns in Illinois:
As a matter of law, there were few applications of firearms law against white people until the civil-rights era led states to apply jim-crow firearms laws to the entire population.
People used to marry younger too.
VA may be different, but IIRC buying some 44 mag once and being asked if it was for a pistol or rifle. I replied, truthfully, 'for a rifle', but how would they know? I think there is a rifle made in almost any caliber. It's a pretty silly question.
That's been the case since the '60s. Before then, rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights (not technically the amendments per se) applied to the States to the extent they were "fundamental to the concept of ordered liberty" (Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319 (1937)). Under Palko, rights could be applied to the States in a way less than they were to the federal government, under the belief that the Bill of Rights applied those same rights to the federal government to the extant beyond their being "fundamental to the concept of ordered liberty".
No, it only repealed the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) and allowed the States to regulate alcohol (Section 2 of the 21st Amendment).
While I'm not certain the correct Constitutional answer, it's pretty clear that the best (post-incorporation) test case would be brought by an emancipated 19-20 year old who was denied a long gun permit but would be fully qualified for a permit under existing law, but for the age restriction. Throw in a few attractive but Constitutionally irrelevant factoids like the test case plaintiff also being a member of her college rifle team, in the National Guard, holder of a hunting license, etc., and you might even get some sympathy, much like Dick Heller being a security guard at a Federal building who was authorized to carry while on duty.
And yet, I know this: the second amendment does not simply tie the federal government; it stipulates that the inalienable right to bear arms shall not be infringed. It says "shall not," ladies and gentlemen. Should we take this to mean "shall not by the federal government?" Is there not conveyed both implicit urgency and importance in "being necessary to the security of a free State" to defend one's self from threats of tyrrany both foreign and domestic? If not, then the Bill itself means nothing; we must free ourselves from the paper bondage of this farciful founding document. I see those being the only two possible outcomes.
But what do I know? I'm just a cave man.
It's perfectly possible to recognize that the right to bear arms is important while also recognizing that it works differently than some other rights because guns can be dangerous. And without opining as to what, exactly, the minimum age required for Second Amendment rights is, the idea that there is one seems to me to be perfectly plausible.
What seems plausible to you - and the language of the Constitution - are two very different things (thank goodness).
It's perfectly possible to recognize that the free speech arms is important while also recognizing that it works differently than some other rights because words can be offensive. And without opining as to what, exactly, the minimum age required for First Amendment rights is, the idea that there is one seems to me to be perfectly plausible.
Do you feel there is any age before which it is reasonable to forbid unsupervised access to firearms? Any age young enough that a store should refuse to sell a firearm?
For example, you are constitutionally protected against cruel and unusual punishment from birth. Dilan is suggesting that your second amendment right aren't fully vested quite that early. One can quibble about the ages - 14, 16, 18, 21, or whatever, but the principle seems pretty reasonable.
Certainly back in the the days of the Founding Fathers, it was normal for youngsters to carry and use firearms.
Might it not have bearing that today's military allows 18-year-olds to carry and use firearms? I don't know if it's still the case, but back in the 1970s, when I did a few courts-martial, the military allowed 17-year-olds to enlist and serve, as long as they had parental consent to join. So it may be the case that even 17-year-olds are carrying and using firearms in the military.
Of course these youngsters receive training and are supervised in the military, unlike civilian youngsters seeking to purchase firearms.
But the military experience does at least demonstrate, I think, that age per se does not automatically render an 18-year-old unfit to carry and use firearms.
Whether a training requirement--completion of an instructional class, for example--could be required is another question.
Correct. They receive training and are supervised outside of the military.
You do understand that people who live in New York City are allowed to occasionally leave the City don't you?
There are people in New York City who like to shoot at targets for recreation. Some even like to hunt. They take their rifles outside the City to participate in a legal activity they enjoyed while growing up probably somewhere else. Or which they learned to enoy on one of their occasional leaves from the City. They have to keep their rifles somewhere, so why not at home with the rest of their personal property?
Yes, though I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea. :)
So this is really an issue just for people who go elsewhere to shoot. If you do have a permit, can you carry your rifle or shotgun with you as you walk along the street? It isn't a concealed weapon.
So under your theory "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury" in the Fifth Amendment applies to every state felony proceeding? What could be clearer? It doesn't say state crimes.
Unless the constitution establishes an "age of majority" for KABA, I don't know that any reasonable number for such a restriction is outrageous.
Cheers,
Wouldn't that require a constitutional convention? :-)
My first reaction is to say, since "a Grand Jury" is specified in the text, that it refers specifically to courts at the federal level. But I have not researched the matter at all, as I have spent most of the night in my hotel suite hypnotized at a glowing box trapping miniature, gyrating women.
How does a Cave Man Lawyer conclude that "Grand Jury" means "Federal Grand Jury". It doesn't say federal Grand Juries, and there are, in fact, state grand juries.
All that the Constitution, as a document, knows of States' governments is that they're going to be republican and delegate senators. If it weren't for the first clause, monarchy at the State level would be legal. Everything else is a matter of individuals. As far as the Constitution and its amendments specify, isn't it up to the elected representatives of the member State to decide court procedure?
Frankly, the concept of court jurisdiction angers and confuses me.
Because of the combination New York's draconian pistol licensing laws and bureaucratic impediments (i.e.: the Police Department "loses" application materials all the time), for most the long gun - specifically, the shotgun - is the only viable option for home defense in the City.
In fact, in tight quarters, the shotgun can be safer to 3rd parties because, if you you the proper shot, while it's as or more effective than a pistol at short range, it's effectiveness drops off dramatically at medium and long ranges. It also is less likely to go through walls and such in apartment buildings. This means that stray bullets/shot is much less likely to injure others.
...of course, there's also the old-style butcher shops in the City that can really prepare a deer or turkey (that you admittedly have to shoot outside the City) very nicely for you. :-)
Aren't facts relevant to the discussion, though? The Mumbai killers did not kill scores of people and hold the financial district hostage for days with speech. You will note though, that truly dangerous speech acts such as immediate threats and the ubiquitous "yelling fire in a crowded theater" are not protected speech and can be criminally prosecuted.
I would point out on the subject of age restrictions that freedom of speech and of the press have been held to imply, quite logically, freedom to hear and freedom to read. If I can legally publish and distribute a book, someone else has must have the right to purchase, possess and read the book for the freedom to mean anything. However, this is not true for minors where the courts have long held that the state can restrict minors' access to offensive content. Not to mention that parents can do the same. So children do not, in fact, have the same 1st Amendment rights as everyone else under current law.
Correct. They receive training and are supervised outside of the military.
Sometimes. I'm reminded of my boyhood in rural Canada in the early 1950s. A friend got his first air rifle on his 13th birthday. Within a half hour of the end of his birthday party, he had shattered the big front window at the restaurant his parents owned and shot a friend right in the eye. His rifle was confiscated.
A few weeks later I got my first air rifle for Christmas, a Daisy with wooden stock. I was 10. We boys shot birds for sport, for which I've long been ashamed. We also played a game that involved hunting down each other in the woods and shooting each other below the waist with BB pellets. We were good shots, we wore heavy denim jeans and no one got hurt. But it was foolish.
A couple of years later we went on to .22 caliber rifles. By then, we had somehow picked up basic rules of safety, although we had no formal instruction. Beyond familiarity with the weapon, of course, most of it is common sense. Regrettably, a lot of young people don't have common sense; they get it through making mistakes. But mistakes with firearms often carry deadly consequences.
Later, in the Boy Scouts, we got formal instruction in weapons safety. By then, however, most of us had been using knives and rifles for years.
Were the guns purchased legally?
Justifying denying this right to somebody who's old enough to join the military is going to be pretty difficult.
Visitor again, you make a good case for making sure children get BB guns some time before they're old enough for regular firearms. Let them make their mistakes while the consequences are still somewhat limited.
Yes, I think that's right. But I'm afraid today's majority would conclude no weapons at all--BB guns included--for young people.
Denying the right to keep and bear arms to a member of the militia under federal law would seem to be a constitutional problem.
I never realized that it changed to 21. I wonder when they did that?
ChrisIowa; similar to Larrya, when my parent's generation grew up in NYC many of the public high schools had indoor ranges and rifle teams. When I was a teen in the 1960's I belonged to a Jr. rifle club sponsored by the local police precinct and we used to have a range in the basement of a bar in Astoria, Queens. That same club ran a hunting trip each thanksgiving for us members and we would get to the bus usually by walking or taking the subway with our packs of clothes and our cased hunting rifles :)
There was still a range in the basement of my high school but no team and it was not used. City College of NY had a range and a team through the mid 70's.
How broadly would the conservatives (Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito) interpret the 2nd amendment? Those four have voted against the exclusionary rule to give teeth to forbidding unreasonable searches, as well as confessions obtained after holding a suspect for a long time before a hearing.
For what it's worth (probably not much), my high school ROTC program in Denver (it was a public high school), in the late 1980s, also had a shooting range for 22 caliber rifles. However, by then I don't believe the school still had rifle competitions. My point is, that at 15 years old, I was "trained" (if you could call it that....I really just learned how to miss a target) on firing these weapons.
Having said that, I believe the state does have a legitimate interest in setting age limits for gun use and ownership, even if the 2nd amendment is incorporated. I do agree, however, with someone above who stated that the state should have a good reason for doing so
True, but one always has the physical ability to "yell fire in a crowded theater". We don't have our mouths sewn shut upon entering (though maybe...). Also, if there were a fire, wouldn't we want to have the ability to yell "fire"?
The infringments proposed and in some cases adopted to the Second Amendment are prior restraint. We have no such limitations on the First Amendment.
You aren't allowed to fire a gun in a crowded theater...unless there's a nutjob with a gun assaulting the crowd.
If rifles and other long guns are so useless in an urban setting for the purpose of self-defense, why do police officers need them?
Maybe there's a good argument for limiting gun ownership to AOM, but the same crowd that believes that 18 year olds should be able to drink, and 12 year olds have abortions, suddenly gets all squeamish about gun ownership by those who are trusted to drink, vote, join the military, and make contracts.
The question was why would someone want a rifle in New York City NOW. I hope this linky thing works, but just to show that I do know there are currently rifle shooters residing in and around New York.
Rifles in New York
BTW One of the best rifle shooters in the Country in the early years of the 20th century was A. Hubalek (sp?) from Brooklyn. He had a gun shop there.
I suppose the concept of incorporation would similarly confuse you. Before the Fourteenth Amendment, no one thought that the Second Amendment would apply to the states. Why else would various State Constitutions include the right to keep and bear arms?
2. The Second Amendment doesn't protect a right to hunt, although that was generally assumed in 1791. The right to self-defense was also generally assumed in 1791, but that wasn't the primary reason for the Second Amendment. The primary reason for the Second Amendment was to remind the government who was in charge, and to provide a way for popular resistance to government tyranny.
3. New York City's handgun restrictions are absurd, and make a long gun the most realistic way for most New Yorkers to own a gun. In the early 1920s, New Yorkers started to get around the handgun restrictions of the Sullivan Law by buying another type of weapon that wasn't classed as a handgun, and not yet restricted: the Tommy gun.
you might wish that guns and speech are the same, but they aren't.
Surprisingly, many of the promoters of these new restrictions on free speech, firearm rights, etc. are the same enraged youths of the 60s.
I am prepared to accept some restrictions on guns based on original intent in the same way that I am prepared to accept some restrictions on speech based on original intent.
If liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way that they interpret the First Amendment, there would be effectively no gun control laws of any sort.
Didn't the court in Hill v. State, 53 Ga. 472 clarify that "the right to beep and bear the 'arms' necessary for a militiaman," did not include such things as private pistols?
You are suggesting that the Second Amendment is code for a constitutional right to armed insurrection? Perhaps you could elaborate on your thinking.
I rather think the Founders would think that we now deny even adults the rights of adulthood. We are not allowed guns, dangerous chemicals are prescribed, and we are not trusted with cash except in small quantities. We go about with ID in our pocket in vehicles with ID numbers on the bumpers for the convenience of police. In many places, we can not keep a goat or sheep on our front lawns, and grazing rights on the town green are long gone. I'm pretty liberal in most ways, but I think that the intrusion of the government into our lives for nominal law enforcement and public safety purposes is way past the point of diminishing returns.
Also, when I was in JROTC we had primary marksmenship training with BB guns, advancing to .22 as one progressed through High School. Today, thanks to gun controlists and no guns on campus we have no .22s, no BB guns, and even the demilitarised Springfield bolt actions used by the drill team and color guards are gone. And this doesn't effect the training of the cadets??!!
I'm just a cave man. Your "amendments" and congressional districting maps are as confusing as the abstracted constellations in the sky. But as Orion's belt holds up his trousers, and by its existence does not indicate whether he is wearing a shirt, State government right protection does not imply what one might think it does.
State government constitutions' provisions for protections of the same rights as those of the federal government do not necessarily imply one or the other interpretation of the Bill of Rights. After all, member States existed before the union, and were thought to be able to do so in case the union dissolved, for an extreme example. Unless the State officially and explicitly took a position on it, restricting state government in the same way the federal government does tells us nothing.
I would argue that it's clear the Second Amendment applies to the rights of individuals. The question is whether only the federal government is restrained, being taken from the text of that level of government's charter, or whether it means exactly what it says, regardless of context of jurisdiction. I would also argue the latter.
At the end of the day, when you've been running from a hungry leopard for hours, it's not the animal's own biological mechanism to save it from fatal fatigue that will save you from being eaten; it is the pit you have dug ahead of time and covered with light limbs and large leaves. You can feed it, store it for later nurishment, or starve it into submission, but you can not hope to tame it. You are soft meat, and it is a toothy carnivore.
I would think that interpreting the Constitution in a plausible and reasonable manner is more important that Clayton Cramer settling whatever scores he has with liberals. Apparently you don't.
Generally, libs will never accept any restriction on abortion. Abortion is sacrosanct to them. It's their Holy of Holies. But the Second Amendment - an actual, real, written, right in the Constitution - means nothing to them.
It will be a cold day in hell before the restictions imposed in the exercise of the second amendment are applied to abortion.
Good point.
For instance, there will never be a waiting period applied to abortion procedures....
Guns aren't speech and they aren't abortions. Any rational legal system would have different approaches for different rights. Apparently, for some people, it's more important that nobody get jealous of someone else's favored right than it is for provisions to get reasonable and plausible constructions that take into account the context of the particular right claimed.
Under liberalisum, the right to a secret ballot is only for those who best can use such a right. When it stands against a policy they support, everyone who voted against must be disclosed and denounced in a public forum.
Under liberalisum, we have no individual rights from the first 10 amendments of the Constitution (Stevens Dissent, Heller case). Thus, we can only invoke Habeus Corpus if our petition comes from a group or collective large enough to pass merit. We also have no individual right to elect our representatives to Congress (Brady third response to the Heller Case).
And now soldiers who have served honorably in combat are now labeled as possible recruits for the KKK and have to be monitored as well as prevented from having arms. But Police who have no military function but are loyal members of the union get unmonitored access to assault rifles and 50 calibers.
"Constitutional jealousy"...this is a new tack, Dilan. Nice way to divert.
Why don't you explain the reasonableness of prior restraint with respect to the 2nd that you don't see with respect to any other right?
I thought the Constitution meant what it says. Silly me.
I don't know what you mean by "any other right". Prior restraints are not applicable in the context of criminal procedure rights. They are sometimes constitutional in the abortion context (judicial bypass in parental consent laws being one example). They are sometimes (but more rarely) constitutional in the speech context (parade permits being an example).
In other words, there isn't any magical incantation that "no constitutional right may ever be subject to a prior restraint". Certain types of prior restraints, such as content neutral, efficient licensing schemes, are approved even in the speech context because they are seen as serving important interests while leaving alternative channels of communication open. Other types of prior restraints are looked on with extreme skepticism, because they are attempts to circumvent what is seen as the central First Amendment principle, that government is not permitted to suppress ideas based on viewpoint or content.
If "prior restraints" are going to be flatly unconstitutional in the gun right context, it would not be because of the prior restraint doctrine in the First Amendment context. This is what I mean by "constitutional jealousy"-- there's plenty of gun rights advocates who are going to apparently get mad if their cherished right is in some sense less broad or "weaker" than the First Amendment, without any regard to the differences between guns and speech.
Rather, any "prior restraint" doctrine in the Second Amendment would have to be based on some conclusion that this type of gun regulation is categorically seriously harmful to the core principles behind the right to keep and bear arms, and is not sufficiently justified to stand.
Now you can, of course, make such arguments. But you have to make them. Simply whining about how it isn't fair that Louie Liberal gets a broad First Amendment but Charlie Conservative's Second Amendment isn't as broad isn't legal reasoning-- it's the discourse of second graders at recess.
The analogy fails because there is no general right to vote protected by the Constitution while there is a general right to bear arms protected by the second amendment.
It's broad and ambiguous, which is why it has to be given a reasonable construction based on intent, the principles behind it, and the context in which rights claims are made. Saying "it means what it says" begs the question when you are talking about broad generalities.
Harvey's right! Let's do away with law schools and the courts. Every man can be his own consitutional scholar.
*Hansberry v. Lee being the one most clearly decided that way.
Are you sure it is declaring a right or does it, like all the other Nine Amendments, serve as security against "constructive enlargement" of national powers?
Most restrictions on firearms are based upon the assumption that law-abiding citizens are only law-abiding because they lack the means to go on shooting rampages.
Really? I can think of several other reasons why there are restrictions on firearms:
1. Because even guns purchased by law abiding citizens sometimes get stolen.
2. Because registration, licensing, tracing, and the like could assist law enforcement in solving crimes and putting criminals behind bars.
3. Because certain types of weapons really aren't very useful for the types of purposes that law abiding citizens would want to use them for anyway.
Note that I am not saying that all these reasons or valid. There are counter-arguments to each one. All I am saying is that there are a lot of other reasons other than the assumption that every gun owner is a potential criminal why people might favor gun restrictions.
I could argue that kayaks aren't very useful for water travel, and there are better ways to get down a mountain than skis. Kayaking and skis are associated with non-trivial accident and death rates, but I don't see anyone moving to ban them.
Let me anticipate the first response: the kayaker only drowns himself, not the school child waiting at the bus stop. Possibly, but if we get into weighing the value of one death against another we've started to lose our humanity. Besides, a lot of the people killed by guns are bad guys, so that attitude could eviscerate the statistics loved by the anti-gun crowd.
The gun control advocate is, in general, not a gun owner. (Supply your own list of egregious exceptions here.) He loses nothing if guns are banned. We can safely assume he would be angry if his own sport were banned, be it golf (all those lightning strikes!), or kayaking, or skiing, or whatever.
Back to the quote. A lot people own AK-47-type weapons for reasons that seem inadequate to me. "Because they are so freakin' cool to shoot" or "For home defense when the society breaks down and I have to keep my neighbor from eating my food supply." Well, I deplore the attitudes (for different reasons) but the cold fact is that these people do not show up on the police blotter.
I thought I was clear about the fact that I wasn't endorsing all the rationales I set out. I was simply saying that when gun rights advocates assume that the "only" reason people support these types of restrictions is an assumption that gun owners are all prospective criminals is incorrect. There are other reasons, whether you think there are good ones or bad ones.
Do enlighten me as to how there is no "general" right to vote?
Most of the statements allowing for govt control of speech etc are based on irrational court rulings used to expand govt coercion of the people.
First Amendment - Can anyone state that those who framed this were calling for the overthrow of the British govt just shortly before? Or calling for someone to kill the King? But when the shoes on the other foot we have draconian laws that jail persons for making similar statements today. What is the 1st amendment useful for if not for protecting the type of speech that is often cited as not protected?
Because the feds are required to guarantee a republican form of govt, the Constitution would be the most appropriate location to place the core requirements for states (and the feds) to meet. We call those core requirements the Bill of Rights. By placing them at the end of the Constitution and calling them Amendment "OF" the Constitution, one should be able to grasp their applicability to all levels of govt (Barron notwithstanding).
Tiochfaidh ar la!
There is no right to vote anywhere in the US Constitution. There is only security against state voter qualifications based on such things as race or sex.
Or how about....
Including guns owned by the police and the Secret Service?
Any examples of this happening?
So then there is nothing wrong with law abiding citizens having weapons used by the government.
Again, as I said, my point wasn't about the relative validity of those rationales, but that they exist. I will say it one more time. Plenty of gun rights advocates ASSUME that the only reason one could possibly want to regulate guns is because the person assumes that all gun owners are potential criminals. That very argument was made upthread. In fact, plenty of people have other reasons-- whether good or bad-- why they want to regulate guns.
Since you mention it though, I might repeat what I have said in other threads, that the gun rights talking points on registration are completely full of it. We have at least 100 reported California appellate cases where the registration of the gun was considered a relevant piece of evidence in establishing the guilt of the defendant. Given all the cases that are either never tried due to a guilty plea, never appealed, or never produced an appellate opinion, that probably translates into at least 5,000 cases where the registration of the gun was useful in helping put the criminal behind bars. And that's just one state.
So yes, plenty of crimes ARE indeed committed with registered guns, and plenty of times the gun registration is a useful piece of evidence. The gun rights talking point on this issue is complete bunk.
I don't think I've ever seen a rifle chambered in .38 Special, but point taken.
By the way, am I the only one who tries to kill himself when reading Cave Man Lawyer's posts? There's something about his combination of (a) a stupid running joke, poorly executed and (b) really, really bad legal analysis. It makes me want to hurl.
Although I guess my handle could be thought of as a stupid running joke. Okay, I take it all back.
I can just see all those heinous criminals taken off of the streets who otherwise would have skated but for the damning evidence of a gun registration!
The statistical irrelevance of its effect can hardly outweigh the financial cost alone not to mention the imposition on the millions of law-abiding gun owners.
You need to look just a little bit harder. (All of Marlin's competitors in the lever-action arena make similar models.) Lever-action rifles in .38 Special/.357 Magnum are very popular, as it's pretty much the cheapest possible centerfire rifle ammo, and also has very light recoil.
All good points but I was responding to someone who thought that regulating guns because they are dangerous logically leads to arguments about regulating speech because it also is dangerous. The Supreme Court, for a variety of reasons, has largely rejected prior restraint in First Amendment cases. Unlike firearms regulations, speech regulations would inevitably be vague and open to over-zealous enforcement. Prior restraint would become arbitrary censorship.
By contrast, statutes and regulations can specify pretty clearly which arms are allowed and which aren't. In any case, no court is going to recognize a right to own anti-aircraft weaponry, RPGs or nuclear weapons.
Moreover, you neglected the second part of my post where there clearly is a restriction on juveniles' 1st Amendment rights. Juveniles do not have the same rights as adults to purchase material that is "harmful to minors." Material that is "harmful to minors" but not "obscene" is, however, protected by the 1st Amendment for adults.
I sit corrected! I idiotically didn't consider the fact that you can shoot .38 Special in a .357.....
But I am just a simple cave man, and... (sound of vomiting).
So is there ANY handgun caliber not available in a rifle? Maybe something small?
Ones which I am not aware of (which is a far cry from 'there aren't any'): 357 SIG, 45 GAP, 25 ACP, 32 ACP, the 9mm calibers that are shorter or longer than 9x19, 10mm, etc. And there are less mainstream calibers (357 Maximum, etc).
I'm speaking of production rifles; who knows what people cook up on their own, e.g. 45 ACP SMLEs.
Working the other way - finding a rifle caliber for which no pistol has been chambered - is even harder - it would be an obscure caliber indeed for which no one has ever chambered a Thompson Contender.
In general, trying to classify calibers as exclusively 'pistol' or 'rifle' seems pretty difficult. Rifles in the common pistol calibers (22, 9mm, 38/357, 40, 44, 45 ACP and 45 LC) are quite common. Pistols in the common rifle calibers (30-06, 223, ...) are IMHE less common, though by no means rare..
There is an interesting book called 'Shots in the Dark' by William Vizzard, that I recommend to anyone interested in firearms policy. Mr. Vizzard is a career ATF agent, who has some opinions that are not exactly from the VPC playbook, e.g. he thinks 'if you can own it, you shouldn't face further restrictions on carrying it'. He does advocate registration, though. He believes there is a fairly common fact pattern where, e.g., a felon is pulled over, the police find a gun under the seat, and the felon's girlfriend swears it's her gun.
It's one thing to make a cost/benefit argument against registration, but I don't think you can just dismiss it as 'of no law enforcement value whatsoever'.
How is that scenario different if the girlfriend registers the gun?
If the GF makes a straw purchase, buying the gun legitimately for her BF, then if the ATF uses a trace under current law, it will show as sold to the GF. Effectively registered already. At least for 10 years.
There are plenty of rifles that shoot the same calibre of ammo as a pistol. However, one must also consider the casing.
Modern rifles generally use casings and powder loads that are greater than used in pistols, even for the same calibre.
For instance, I have 7.62x38mm Russian pistol ammo, 7.62x39mm AK/SKS ammo, and 7.62x54mm Russian rifle ammo. All the same "calibre" but none of them are interchangeable and they are all quite different ballistically.
Of course, many rifles shoot actual pistol ammunition. It is quite convenient in Cowboy Action Shooting, for instance, to use the same ammo for your revolvers and your lever action rifle. Indeed as pointed out by commenter above, .38 is very popular for both single action revolvers and lever action rifles.
It's not - but she has to do that beforehand, or she is looking at a 'possession of unregistered firearm' charge. He can't just toss it under the seat when the flashing light comes on. Mr. Vizzard feels few crooks will plan that far ahead.
So I'm still not seeing the grand benefit that outweighs the heavy cost placed upon the millions of lawful gun owners...
Criminal cases are a mosaic of various pieces of evidence. It's almost impossible to say that one piece of evidence is determinative. Was Phil Spector convicted because of Lana Clarkson was shot in his house, because the gun was his gun, because it was found in his living room, or because he said to the police that he shot her? Or was it a combination of all those things.
Gun registrations are part of the mosaic in many California cases. You would never say about, say, regular police beat patrols, "can you show me one murderer who was convicted solely because he was spotted by an officer on beat patrol?". Or, about shoe print evidence, "can you show me one murderer who was convicted solely because of a shoe print evidence". Evidence is useful in light of other evidence, which cumulatively forms the basis for a conviction. We have 100 reported appellate cases in California where a gun registration formed part of the mosaic.
It's OK to oppose gun registration. It's silly to pretend that it can never be a useful crime-fighting tool.
I'm saying the dubious efficacy of the registrations in 100 appellate cases does not anywhere nearly validate the imposition on millions of lawful gun owners.
Nope, registration is not narrowly focused enough for the results being achieved. Back to the drawing board.
Fine, then, make those arguments. I never call people out who claim that the burden of registration exceeds its value.
I do, however, call out people who make the completely BS claim that there's no way that registration ever helped solve a crime.
In this federal system, when you buy a gun from a licensed dealer, you fill out a form at the dealer - and it stays at the dealer. When a local PD calls up the BATF and asks for a trace on a gun serial number, they have to first contact the manufacturer to find where that serial number was shipped. Possibly they have to contact a distributor. Finally, they contact the dealer and get a name and address. There may be further complications if people moved - but registration databases aren't always up to date, either.
In the federal system, there's no central database. The government does not have a list of gun owners. While such a list could in theory be assembled from the information on record, it cannot be done secretly or quickly over any widespread area.
I think the federal trace system achieves a reasonable balance. It burdens legal gun owners very little and saves enough information to solve most of the crimes where a legally purchased crime gun is found by the police. This doesn't catch career criminals, who obviously are going to obtain any guns they intend to use in crimes through untraceable illegal channels, but it does make it a little harder for them to get those guns.
On the other hand, when a state runs a burdensome registration system in addition to the federal trace system, I have to wonder whether the burden is the real object, or the legislators were just too ignorant to know that they are duplicating an existing system.
After all, states can set the age for marriage, voting, and signing contracts, among other matters that are constituional rights for "adults." The fact that most states have converged on a certain age has no constitutional significance, just as the constitution doesn't require driving on the right hand side of the road or measuring gas in gallons even though most or all states happen to do so.) I see no reason why gun ownership should be any different.
The constitution has a maximum age requirement of 18 for one matter only, voting in federal elections. The same constitution has higher minimum age requirements for various federal offices. The continued existence of these higher minima is itself proof that 18 couldn't have been intended to be the age for everything. The states continue to have a power to determine the age of majority for other matters, and they can set a separate age for each matter if they want.
Whether New York City has a power to set a different age from the rest of New York State is a matter of state law, not federal or constitutional law.
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