[Ira Matetsky, guest-blogging, May 17, 2009 at 11:54pm] Trackbacks
Wikipedia: Some Concluding Thoughts and an Invitation:

A few years ago, as the promised Information Superhighway was growing into the Internet that we know today, no one (to my knowledge) predicted that a collaboratively written, free-content, mass-linked website aspiring to cover all areas of human knowledge would become one of the most prominent information sources in the world. Still less did I anticipate that I would eventually play a role helping to administer such a site.

Eugene inspired me to volunteer this series of posts, now drawing to a close, by discussing a series of cases in which courts have either cited to Wikipedia for information, or asked themselves whether they can take judicial notice of the content of a Wikipedia article.

My own take on the reliability of Wikipedia articles is consistent with that suggested by some of the commenters: articles on non-contentious topics are usually accurate; articles on highly contentious articles are usually accurate on basic facts, but can be subject to bias and dispute with respect to the matters in controversy. It's an overgeneralization, but in essence, if debating a subject could lead to a fist-fight in a bar, or to a heated dispute in academe, then sooner or later the subject will be involved in a content dispute on Wikipedia. This is really not a surprise.

(The surprise comes from how many additional petty matters we also argue about. The people who sometimes refer to Wikipedia administrators and experienced editors collectively as a "Hivemind" may have overlooked the amount of bickering that goes on every day on the Administrators' Noticeboards.)

However, a strong article with more than the most basic content should contain citations of sources where information in the article was drawn from. Checking the sources, and where appropriate citing to them rather than the Wikipedia article itself, may often resolve the question of "is Wikipedia reliable enough to cite?" If no sources are cited, check the links to related articles; the relevant sources may be there. Otherwise, the article history will tell you who wrote the article, and sometimes a query on his or her usertalkpage will elicit the missing references. Beyond that, every article on Wikipedia has an associated "talkpage" where issues concerning the contents of the article, including requests for sourcing of controversial statements, may be addressed.

Anyone relying on Wikipedia must take into account that there are no guarantees as to who contributed a given article or sentence, or why. (In fact, this is emphasized in a couple of places on the site itself.) I think the general population of Internet users has become more aware of both the strengths and weaknesses of various resources, including Wikipedia, than was the case even a few years ago. At a dinner with extended family recently at which my role on Wikipedia came up, my niece, aged 11, told me that her middle-school librarian had cautioned her students not to rely automatically on the accuracy of Wikipedia and to double-check the information before using it for anything important.

More generally, everyone, and especially those young enough not to remember pre-Internet times, will all come to learn more generally which types of research can effectively be performed on the Internet, and which benefit most from access to older or more traditional resources. (Readers who are lawyers will recognize this as analogous to the discussions that go on between younger lawyers heavily dependent on Lexis or Westlaw, and more senior lawyers who believe that thinking through a problem and researching comprehensively often requires a trip to the library.) No one — whether a student writing a paper or someone looking for information — should simply accept information derived from any source without thinking through the quality of the source and what biases it might introduce.

Wikipedia is a valuable but a flawed resource and, as I stressed in the first of these posts, its main strength is also its main weakness: that anyone can contribute to it. Some articles suffer from political or other biases (a core content policy is that all articles must be written from a "neutral point of view," but not every editor is committed to upholding policy, and in any event, NPOV is often in the eye of the beholder). Some articles have been tampered with playfully or maliciously, and although most "vandalism" or "trolling" edits are picked up and reverted quickly, others are not, and some have lingered for months.

(Most vandals are just passing nuisances, such as bored schoolchildren, but some are more persistent, and a small but extremely troublesome handful are persistent to the point of doing serious damage. I'd be interested, just as a point of information, in learning whether there is any legal precedent for in some fashion barring such people from write-accessing or editing on a site. I will add that this is intended as a purely academic question.)

Moreover, the quality of articles varies very widely, and some articles need to be expanded or rewritten before they will have much value. Some articles are absent altogether; even with 2.8 million articles, there is a lot more yet to be written. (I envy some of the earlier editors who had the whole scope of knowledge to write on a blank slate, but there is still plenty more to be done. The occasional suggestion that "everything worth writing on-wiki has been written" is no more accurate than the comment of the apocryphal patent examiner who supposedly urged that "everything worth inventing has been invented.)

And yet — for all of Wikipedia's flaws, the fact is that it has become a central resource relied upon by many. That suggests that researchers typically find Wikipedia content both accessible and reliable. As I pointed out in my first post, Conspirators on this blog often link to a Wikipedia article when introducing a topic. They wouldn't do that if the articles weren't reasonably reliable at least in their basics. In my own experience, when I Google a topic and I come upon the Wikipedia article and read it, I find the information reliable. It may or may not be complete or brilliantly written, but it rarely is just wrong.

This will be my last post in this series, but I'll try to respond to any ongoing dialog in the comment thread. For those interested in further discussion, I assure you that there is ongoing dialog about virtually every issue affecting Wikipedia to be found somewhere right on Wikipedia. Although a few core policies are handed down by the Wikimedia Foundation, and some others arise from technical features and limitations of the software, almost all other Wikipedia policies and guidelines are developed largely by "the community," which means the collective body of editors, and more specifically, those who care enough about a given issue to participate in discussing it.

For those interested in discussing these issues without venturing onto Wikipedia itself, there is ongoing discussion of both theoretical objections to Wikipedia's structure and day-to-day operating issues on a website called "Wikipedia Review" (www.wikipediareview.com). (I participate there on occasion myself — I had not intended to, but someone invited me to join and I accepted.) "WR" can be a mixed bag, containing some instances of overgeneralizations and too much nasty ad hominem for my taste — but interspersed with that is some of the more well-reasoned criticism and commentary I've seen. WR also has a blog, blog.wikipediareview.com, whose contents be more accessible than the sometimes "inside baseball" discussions on the main forum. More recently, some present and former WR members have started another site, www.akahele.com, which also contains critical essays and commentary.

But in my opinion, the best way of enhancing or improving Wikipedia, whether by tweaking one article at a time or by advocating for some site-wide policy change, is to roll up one's sleeves and join in contributing there. For me, at least, I've combined the fun of a new hobby mixed with the enjoyment of sharing knowledge and helping resolve disputes.

Remember, anyone can edit, with or without registering an account. (Creating a brand-new article requires registration, which can be done using one's real name or a pseudonym.) The user interface is accessible even to those without computer skills (believe me, if I could master it, then anyone can), and within a few minutes of sitting down at the keyboard, you'll be an editor and a Wikipedian. Any editor can edit not just articles, but the policy discussions and related pages as well.

If you get stuck, [[Wikipedia:Help]] should link you to a page containing whatever information you need, although Volokh Conspirators (and anyone else) are also welcome to inquire at [[User talk:Newyorkbrad]] if you run into any problems. Perhaps a few of us can conspire there to pick a law-related article to collaborate on and bring up to Featured Article. (And also feel free to e-mail me with any questions or comments if you prefer; please use Newyorkbrad -at- Gmail.com rather than my work e-mail for this purpose.)

My thanks to Eugene and the other Conspirators for giving me a forum here this week (and also for giving me lots of interesting and challenging blog-reading over the years), to everyone who has commented or will comment on one of my posts, to the knowledgeable people who responded in detail to my query on Monday about the [[Saxbe fix]], and to all of the readers.

Kirk:
aspiring to cover all areas of human knowledge [emphasis added]
Isn't this assertion directly contradicted by the policy of deleting pages about persons and subjects who are not well-known enough?

"All" is a pretty comprehensive word, after all.
5.18.2009 1:47am
Ken Arromdee:
This will be my last post in this series, but I'll try to respond to any ongoing dialog in the comment thread.

You said in the previous post "A usual if superficial response to on-wiki complaints that an article needs improvement is a template called "{{sofixit}}". More on this tomorrow." Do you no longer intend to say more on this?
5.18.2009 3:04am
[[User:D_Monack]]:
Your use of [[double brackets]] where html links should be points to a peril of Wikiediting: you unconsciously begin to use wiki code everywhere. How many times have I mistakenly used quotation marks to ''italicize'' something in MS Word or an email or tried to make a numbered list with # signs?
5.18.2009 3:48am
Gulf Coast Bandit (mail):
Except he said he was going to use double brackets for those sorts of things in the first post.
5.18.2009 4:14am
geokstr (mail):
Thank you, Ira, for finally acknowledging the possibility of political bias on contentious pages. Now if we could only get you to say that it all comes from one direction...
5.18.2009 9:14am
wolfefan (mail):
Hi -

I don't blame Ira for not getting into specific discussions of alleged liberal bias on Wikipedia. IMHO it's an argument that cannot be won, and a discussion that will generate all heat and no light. There are always charges and counter-charges of bias from both sides, and both sides have anecdotes, examples, and stories that they believe prove their point beyond all debate. The anecdotes and complaints here are from the right, as is to be expected. I suspect that there would be similar complaints from another perspective if this discussion were at The Daily Kos.

Here, for instance, is a blog entry on conservative bias at Wikipedia.

liberal complaint

There are many more; I just posted the first link that I got in a google search.

24aheaddotcom has complained of liberal bias at Wikipedia leading to deletions of changes he has made. On his own website he complains of his posts being deleted from freerepublic.com. Presumably liberal bias at _that_ site is not the reason for those deletions; why should it be assumed to be the reason for deletions on Wikipedia? (I have not read and take no position on any of 24ahead's postings, changes, suggestions or arguments on other sites. He may be right in all that he says. Nor do I take any position on the validity of the argument in the link above except to note that it exists as a representative of complaints from the left.)

It's quite rare that in an enterprise as large as Wikipedia bias would flow only in one direction. It's possible, in the sense that anything is possible, but it would take a lot to convince me that there are no examples of conservative bias on Wikipedia. Those who claim that they or their cause are 100% in the right, as Geokster does above, make me nervous. I'm much more comfortable with those who not only recognize for themselves but publicly admit the existence of the mote in their own eye prior to worrying about the speck in someone else's. I understand that this is a faith-based position which may have no validity for others; nevertheless it's the ethic from which I approach things.

Thanks to Ira for his detailed postings and discussion that gave me more insight into Wikipedia's inner workings. Thanks also to all of those who commented and offered further insight.
5.18.2009 10:25am
guest890:
I'd be interested, just as a point of information, in learning whether there is any legal precedent for in some fashion barring such people from write-accessing or editing on a site.

Aren't the servers private property (presumably owned by the Wikimedia Foundation)? They have the right to "let in" or "kick out" anyone they choose, particularly if that person is causing trouble--just as a disruptive person could be kicked out of a private establishment in the physical world.
I don't see what the complicated legal issue is here--sure, they may have a right to free speech, but that doesn't mean they have the right to force the Wikimedia Foundation to provide a forum for that speech.
5.18.2009 11:36am
Dan T. (mail) (www):
You do realize, NY Brad, that at the height of the "BADSITES Wars" a couple of years ago, some nominations for adminship were shot down by a powerful clique for the thoughtcrime of saying that Wikipedia Review was a "mixed bag" (as you did); the Official Party Line was that it (and some other critical sites) was an unalloyed evil, engaging in vicious harassment of Wikipedians, and must never be linked to in any context or circumstances. My own fight against this attitude and the censorship and repression it engendered was the point where I turned from being completely pro-Wikipedia to my current status of "gadfly" skeptical of all sides in the ongoing debates.
5.18.2009 11:45am
Jon Awbrey (www):
Concluding Unsympathetic Remarks

For my part, Wikipedia represents the antithesis of everything that I've learned about education, ethics, information, research, and scholarship over a lifetime of inquiry.

Is there good content in Wikipedia? Sure. I put some there myself and so have many other people of good will — people who are as naive today as I was once — but I have seen how quickly that quality degrades over time as people of experience get chased off or worn down to tears.

But here is one thing you should not forget — all of that good content is parasitic on prior traditions of research and scholarship that the Wiki-Parasite is destroying as quickly it feeds off its Host.

In my own education I learned that there is a lot more to Knowledge than accumulating a Fact Dump, that the facts of the day rot and decay without living traditions of inquiry to supply and sustain them. The disciplines of analysis and experimentation, the methods of inference and proof, the procedures of research and scholarship must not be short-circuited and shunted to one side in the rush to deliver a product.

I do not know, and do not care, if Ben Franklin counts as Left-Wing or Right-Wing these days, but he comprehended better than most that the viability of a democratic society crucially depends on a Public that is well-educated and well-informed. Wikipedia founds itself falsehoods, and no good can come of that in the end. It puts our whole way of life at risk.

Jon Awbrey
5.18.2009 12:28pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
Ira Matetsky writes: when I Google a topic and I come upon the Wikipedia article and read it, I find the information reliable. It may or may not be complete or brilliantly written, but it rarely is just wrong.

How could anyone who isn't familiar with a topic know an article about that topic is correct or not? Certainly, they can take all the time to check each and every source and look through the talk and history pages (something that I'd imagine only a tiny fraction do), but even after doing all that the article could still be wrong: it might be missing key facts. If you aren't familiar with a topic already, you don't know what could be missing from its article.

Unless you're already an expert on a topic, there's no way to assess whether a WP article is telling you the truth without doing a lot of research first in order to obtain a good overview of all the arguments about a topic. Since you have to do all that research in order to avoid being misled, why bother with WP at all?

See my previous comments for all the problems with what WP considers to be "reliable sources".

As for looking at who wrote an article, there are hundreds or thousands of active WP authors and most use cutesy names rather than anything identifiable. In fact, WP actually discourages accountability through their very, very special no-URLs-in-usernames rule. If Jimbo123 is caught lying, he can just come back as Jimbo789.

As for the comment from wolfefan, I don't want to get into a discussion of FreeRepublic, but my post was a reference to them deleting 24ahead.com/blog/archives/008224.html right after I posted it there. The reason for that deletion was because they didn't understand it was a satire. Another problem with FR is described at 24ahead.com/blog/archives/005656.html and that was because of pro-Bush, pro-GOP bias. It's easy to see why things like that happened at FR, and it's also easy to see why all the negative experiences I've had at WP have happened. That includes me falling prey to that very, very special no-URLs-in-usernames rule after having used a certain name for several years. That was after I dared post some truth to BHO's *talk* page.

Meanwhile, back at WP, please take a look at all the many unanswered comments I've left on the previous entries in this series for much more.

And, maybe volokh.com's lawyer readers would care to weigh in on whether WP is incorrectly interpreting a law in order to help BHO. (I'm going to hope that volokh.com readers are above the liberal troll level and will do their best to understand my argument rather than deliberately misrepresenting it.)
5.18.2009 12:40pm
wyswyg:
About half of the comments left in this series of posts were complaints about Wikipedias pervasive left-wing political bias. And Ira makes zero response to these complaints, thus demonstrating once again for anybody who still needs evidence that Wikipedia is biased.

I'm not sure why VC wasted everybody's time with this series of posts, given that Ira is patently disinterested in what people here have to say.
5.18.2009 1:05pm
wyswyg:

It's quite rare that in an enterprise as large as Wikipedia bias would flow only in one direction.



Enterprises much larger than Wikipedia usualy flow in only one direction. The New York Times, for example. Or CBS. Or NBC. Or CNN. So your assertion is blatently false.



Here, for instance, is a blog entry on conservative bias at Wikipedia


Only an ignorant Kossack would have the audacity to try to bring up that completely debunked "phony soldier" controvesy again. I suggest you attempt to broaden your reading horizons beyond the fringe leftist blogs.
5.18.2009 1:13pm
wolfefan (mail):
Hi -

Thanks for your comments, 24ahead. I appreciate the context you provide and will be glad to do some more reading on what you have said.

Wyswyg, I'm must not have been clear in what I was saying. I have never read The Daily Kos, but know of it's reputation and general political orientation through references to it on a number of other blogs of the right and the left. I just did a google search and linked to the first result to illustrate that there are such criticisms from the left. I wasn't vouching for the accuracy of the complaint; I didn't even read it carefully. I thought that I explicitly said that; I apologize to you for not making it more clear.

I suspect that one could do the same thing with the outlets you mention. Indeed, Eric Alterman does so regularly, as do such organizations as Media Matters. Sometimes I find their critiques persuasive and sometimes not. The same is true for FAIR, back when they had the media bias field to themselves. YMMV. I think we all see what we want to see, and that we all are tempted to think that the bias is all on the other side from us.

I try to read a variety of sources from a variety of perspectives and let all of it inform my views. I'm sorry that you find this approach ignorant. I won't try and tell you what I read - you wouldn't believe me anyway. However, the fact that I read (and from time to time post) on this blog should be a big hint to you that my reading horizons are already broader than you claim. :) Again, we all (myself included) tend to see what we want to see. It doesn't make you ignorant; uncharitable, maybe, but not ignorant.

Take the common perceptions of Stephen Colbert and Ann Coulter as, respectively, liberal and conservative. There's a study out of The Ohio State University showing that many conservatives believe that Steven Colbert is truly a conservative himself, one who uses self-satire to draw a liberal audience which are then exposed to an admittedly exaggerated conservative critique of their views. These conservatives argue that the exaggeration makes the critique palatable to liberals and thus more effective than, say, O'Reilly or Hannity. The liberal humor writer Gene Weingarten argues that Ann Coulter is a performance artist who believes little if any of her schtick. I'm not sure if he ascribes to her the same motives that some conservatives do to Colbert, although my guess is no.

All of this may be right or it may be wrong (and it has nothing to do with Wikipedia - sorry!) but I am loathe to assign any individual or group as 100% biased, particularly when that assignment just confirms my own opinions and allows me to dismiss those who disagree without engaging.

Best to you both...
5.18.2009 2:01pm
Gregory Kohs (mail) (www):
@Ira Matetsky:
"A few years ago, as the promised Information Superhighway was growing into the Internet that we know today, no one (to my knowledge) predicted that a collaboratively written, free-content, mass-linked website aspiring to cover all areas of human knowledge would become one of the most prominent information sources in the world."

Newyorkbrad, have you never heard of Vannevar Bush's Memex, or of Rick Gates' concept of Interpedia?

Maybe you're focusing on the trifecta of "collaborative", "free", and "website"... in which case, perhaps you're correct, I don't know.

I want to thank you for making the attempts here to promote your view of Wikipedia, but I have to say that I found the Comments to be generally disappointing and tiresome, other than that which Jon Awbrey summed up in a few lines -- perhaps the best comment post I've seen in all of 2009.
5.18.2009 2:42pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
All of this over how ever many days it's been has truly been an embiggening discussion, but since this is a legal site it'd be great if at the very least someone here could respond to the link I posted above.

To make it easier, compare this law:

...the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child...


to the various interpretations that were in [1] for a few months. Here's one:

"... a Hawaii statute that allows births to be registered for children born out of state; however, that law was only passed in 1982 (21 years after Obama's birth registration)..."


Does when the law passed matter? If you think it does, read it again and note the use of the word "Territory". HI ceased to be a Territory in 1959; i.e., the law was meant to be retroactive. Does anyone who's a lawyer and who's willing to use their real name disagree?

Was WP misleading people about that law for around three months?

In the current version, note that it definitively says where BHO was born, despite there still being no definitive proof of that. Of the four sources mentioned, two simply mention the hospital in passing, another includes actual quotes from someone who claims to have heard about it at the time, and the fourth is a stock "debunking" article that makes various leaps of logic.

None of this means that BHO wasn't born there. However, the evidence provided is clearly not definitive proof. Aren't some of the claims in the current or former versions of the WP article based on faith and not on the actual facts of the matter?

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories
5.18.2009 2:43pm
A Law Unto Himself (mail):
So Ira: What is the solution to a William Connoly, who is an editor and aggressively deletes with a clear adjenda?

There seems to be no relief for those who wish to have alternative views aired vis-a-vis "climate" issues.
5.18.2009 4:05pm
24AheadDotCom (mail) (www):
A Law Unto Himself: one solution would be to take WP's content and put it on your own wiki on your own site using WP's own software (get it for free from mediawiki.org). Restrict editing to yourself and trusted others, and then modify the entry to match the actual facts of the matter. If you do a good job at that it might get a lot of links and compete with WP's entry in the search results. Looking into WP's license is up to you; you might decide to simply start from scratch. If you do a good job, you can use yours as an example of just how bad WP is.
5.18.2009 4:11pm
TCtheO wants to be allowed back:
I am perma-banned from Wiki for incivility. Even more annoyingly, Toddst (a busybody admin, but I repeat myself) erased my talk page's comments, complete with my cascading ban punishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TCO
5.18.2009 9:17pm
wyswyg:

I just did a google search and linked to the first result to illustrate that there are such criticisms from the left.



I daresay that I could do a google search and find people who believe in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", or that "fire don't melt steel", or that the CIA killed JFK, or just about any crazy thing you could imagine. So I don't doubt for a second that there are people out there who beieve that the NYT and Wikipedia are right-wing. I'd like to think that sane people would shun these crazys however.
5.18.2009 9:18pm
Dan Tobias (mail) (www):
TCtheO: Yes, some of the ruling clique of admins like to bind and gag people they don't like, in addition to banning them.
5.18.2009 9:45pm
TCtheO wants to be allowed back:
VC is way better than Wikipedia. Well usually it is. Except when we habe numskull lightweights come by and give us 7th grade lectures on wikipedia. Or when Posner posts. But other than that, it's pretty kicking.
5.18.2009 10:44pm
Carrick:
I don't see how rolling up one's sleeves' and getting involved is going to help when you have administrators who are given final control over what content makes it into a page.

To give a trivial example, I have tried repeatedly to get a scientific error corrected on a page on global warming. It is as trivial a mistake as one could make... referring to a stabilizing nonlinearity as a negative feedback. The two are very different things as any scientist or engineer worth his own salt could tell you.

Nonetheless the editor "WC" (who is know for his thick skull, all I need to say) has refused to allow the correction to be made.

The problem in the end isn't WC, or whether this "burning question" is even in his mind for more than two seconds, or even whether he is actually competent to make an informed decision (apparently he is not).

The problem is that the Wikipedia system has given any one individual that much power in the first place.

This is very much at odds in my judgement with the original concept of the Wikipedia as a sort of instrument for measuring the "wisdom of crowds".

Although having administrators make a topic easy to manage, it will be the doom of Wikipedia as a source of accurate and timely information.

Most journals have a review process that involves "peers" with credentials in the field that they are being asked to review in. While at the start that probably wasn't possible, it certainly should be possible now.

To allow an editor to make judgement about content about something that he is personally interested is to create a conflict of interest that generally will not benefit the community at large. There needs to be a divide between the person passing final editorial judgement and those responsible for review of content. And there needs in my opinion to be some form of "outside review" mechanism where comments from informed individuals are sought.
5.19.2009 4:25am
Soronel Haetir (mail):
Carrick,

Given that the IPCC reports have a final going over by politicians and thus contain many of the same sorts of errors, why should wikipedia be free from such influences?
5.19.2009 11:00am
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
Ira Matetsky said in the original post,
articles on highly contentious articles are usually accurate on basic facts

Why should these articles be "usually accurate on basic facts" when these articles have a general bias? That makes no sense at all.
Checking the sources, and where appropriate citing to them rather than the Wikipedia article itself, may often resolve the question of "is Wikipedia reliable enough to cite?"

The problem is that sources are censored also. Wikipedia attacked a report of the Discovery Institute and did not allow a link to a DI rebuttal. [1] [2] [3]
But in my opinion, the best way of enhancing or improving Wikipedia, whether by tweaking one article at a time or by advocating for some site-wide policy change, is to roll up one's sleeves and join in contributing there.

Seth Finkelstein, a columnist who writes for The Guardian, says on his blog [link],
It's hard to convey to the acolytes within the cult of Wikipedia how petty and in fact, downright creepy, it can appear to outsiders. At this point more sane Wikipedia administrators will pop up and say it's just a few bad apples, the other admins will keep them in check. And my reply there is that still reveals a pretty disturbing sociological aspect of Wikipedia. Especially one that might give pause to the impulse to proclaim lots of experts should work for free to increase its power and respectability (and notably also increasing the capability of small cliques of Wikipedia admins to engage in political vendettas).

"More sane" is relative -- no sane person would work for Wikipedia.

Why in the hell should I waste my time and effort trying to help an outfit that wouldn't allow links to my "crappy" personal blog while allowing links to "reputable" and 'notable" personal blogs? [link] And the Wickedpedians falsely claimed that the bloggers on those other blogs were "nationally-syndicated columnists"! You're insane.

I proposed that significant disputes be handled by adding a brief description of the disputed item along with a note that the item is disputed and links to external websites (could include separate Wikipedia discussion pages) where the dispute is discussed or debated. This sensible proposal was ignored. Wikipedia's preferred methods of handling significant disputes are censorship and long edit wars.

I have an invitation for you: I invite you to read my blog's 54 articles -- in three post-label groups -- that bash Wikipedia [1] [2] [3].

Wikipedia is a travesty.
5.19.2009 2:03pm
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
BTW, here is the smoking gun -- "King Jimbo" Wales himself was involved in the discussion about the biography of Cheri Yecke, a relatively minor administrator in public education. The Cheri Yecke bio is where links to my "crappy" personal blog were excluded while links to "reputable" and "notable" personal blogs were allowed [link]. So there is a good chance that King Jimbo was aware of the discrimination against my blog.
5.19.2009 5:22pm
Bolie Williams IV (mail) (www):
The Discovery Institute is promoting Intelligent Design so it's by definition not a reliable or reputable source. By trying to fraudulently sneak watered down creationism into science education, it shows itself to be not worthy of attention.

It's ironic that the same tactics used to support the almost as dodgy AGW theory are used to suppress the very dodgy ID "theory"...
5.19.2009 6:45pm
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
Bolie Williams IV said,
The Discovery Institute is promoting Intelligent Design so it's by definition not a reliable or reputable source. By trying to fraudulently sneak watered down creationism into science education, it shows itself to be not worthy of attention.

The issue here is not intelligent design -- the issue is a Discovery Institute report that found that the Kitzmiller v. Dover opinion's ~6000-word ID-as-science section was copied nearly verbatim from the plaintiffs' opening post-trial brief while ignoring the defendants' opening post-trial brief and the plaintiffs' and defendants' answering post-trial briefs. IMO the main reason for the extreme one-sidedness of this ID-as-science section was that Judge Jones did not expect the decision to be appealed because of a changeover in the school board membership -- had he expected an appeal, he probably would not have wanted the opinion to go to the appeals court with the defendants' arguments on the ID-as-science question unanswered, regardless of how persuasive or unpersuasive those arguments might have been.

So you think that the DI is unworthy of attention; OK, fine. Then don't pay any attention to anything that the DI says. But the DI has the right to present a rebuttal of a Wikipedia attack on a DI report. Anyway, the DI's reliability is irrelevant here because no one asked anyone to take the DI's word for anything in regard to that report. The report showed the texts of the ID-as-science sections of the Dover opinion and the plaintiffs' opening post-trial brief side-by-side for comparison. It was actually the report's critics that asked that their word for something be taken -- they asked people to blindly accept the output of a text comparison program for which ridiculously fantastic abilities were claimed. The DI report has the side-by-side text comparison so people can see for themselves the extent to which the opinion and the brief contain the same ideas. [1] [2] [3]

You and Ken Arromdee should join Wikipedia -- you both have the arbitrary, capricious, discriminatory, bigoted, and tyrannical Wickedpedian mentality.
5.19.2009 10:53pm
Bolie Williams IV (mail) (www):
I did say that it was ironic that the same tactics (which are, IMHO, inappropriate tactics) were used to block the DI as were used to block the global warming skeptics. It would be nice if in all cases, the same standard of neutrality were applied to all sides of an issue rather than using edit wars and arbitrary application of Wiki editing rules to push one viewpoint or another.

I would hope that the result would be that non-scientific opinions and viewpoints would be treated as such (Global Warming Alarmism and Intelligent Design) equally but given that Wikipedia is created, administered, and edited by humans, that won't happen. I guess the best we can hope for is to find a way to get all the biases equal attention and wrest editorial control away from individuals with a strong agenda and a lot of free time.

It is not arbitrary, capricious, discriminatory, or bigoted to treat non-scientific assertions as such. Okay, I'll cop to the tyrannical mentality. If I had absolute power, I would most likely use it. But then who wouldn't?
5.20.2009 1:52pm
MikeT:
So is it safe to say that the only controversial topics on wikipedia are:

1. Global warming
2. Creationism
3. Barack Obama's birth certificate

If so, I think it's pretty successful.
5.21.2009 7:23am
MikeT:
Also, I just read the global warming page for the first time, and the main thing said about negative feedback was this,


When a warming trend results in effects that induce further warming, the process is referred to as a positive feedback; when the warming results in effects that reduce the original warming, the process is referred to as a negative feedback.


Was there something wrong about this, or was there some other statement?
5.21.2009 7:32am
Larry Fafarman (mail) (www):
MikeT said,
So is it safe to say that the only controversial topics on wikipedia are:

1. Global warming
2. Creationism
3. Barack Obama's birth certificate

No, it is not safe to say that -- those just happen to be the ones that have been discussed here (I am not aware of the controversy over Wikipedia's handling of the Obama birth certificate controversy). These controversies are sufficient to show that Wikipedia is completely untrustworthy on controversial topics. These controversies show that Wikipedia is simply not set up to handle controversial topics.

Mike T said,
If so, I think it's pretty successful.

If you think that Wikipedia is pretty successful, then I invite you to read my blog's 54 articles -- in three post-label groups -- that bash Wikipedia [1] [2] [3].

Mike T said,
Also, I just read the global warming page for the first time, and the main thing said about negative feedback was this,
When a warming trend results in effects that induce further warming, the process is referred to as a positive feedback; when the warming results in effects that reduce the original warming, the process is referred to as a negative feedback.

Was there something wrong about this, or was there some other statement?

Here is a huge list of the discussions about the Wikipedia article on global warming.

Bolie Williams IV said,
I did say that it was ironic that the same tactics (which are, IMHO, inappropriate tactics) were used to block the DI as were used to block the global warming skeptics.

That is not how you came across in your previous comment.

Bolie Williams IV said,
I would hope that the result would be that non-scientific opinions and viewpoints would be treated as such

None of my disputes with Wikipedia were about scientific issues per se.
It is not arbitrary, capricious, discriminatory, or bigoted to treat non-scientific assertions as such.

Wikipedia rule WP:PARITY says that "non-scientific assertions" -- as you call them -- do not have to be from reliable sources:
For example, the lack of peer-reviewed criticism of creation science should not be used as a justification for marginalizing or removing scientific criticism of creation science, since creation science itself is almost never published in peer-reviewed journals. Likewise, the views of adherents should not be excluded from an article on creation science because their works lack peer review. (emphasis added)

The only real Wikipedia rule is the "control-freak administrators may make up their own arbitrary, capricious, and discriminatory rules as they go along" rule.
Okay, I'll cop to the tyrannical mentality. If I had absolute power, I would most likely use it. But then who wouldn't?

Why should people donate their time and effort trying to contribute content to an encylopedia run by tyrants?
5.21.2009 6:17pm

Post as: [Register] [Log In]

Account:
Password:
Remember info?

If you have a comment about spelling, typos, or format errors, please e-mail the poster directly rather than posting a comment.

Comment Policy: We reserve the right to edit or delete comments, and in extreme cases to ban commenters, at our discretion. Comments must be relevant and civil (and, especially, free of name-calling). We think of comment threads like dinner parties at our homes. If you make the party unpleasant for us or for others, we'd rather you went elsewhere. We're happy to see a wide range of viewpoints, but we want all of them to be expressed as politely as possible.

We realize that such a comment policy can never be evenly enforced, because we can't possibly monitor every comment equally well. Hundreds of comments are posted every day here, and we don't read them all. Those we read, we read with different degrees of attention, and in different moods. We try to be fair, but we make no promises.

And remember, it's a big Internet. If you think we were mistaken in removing your post (or, in extreme cases, in removing you) -- or if you prefer a more free-for-all approach -- there are surely plenty of ways you can still get your views out.