Sunstein on Hold:

It appears confirmation of Cass Sunstein to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs at OMB will be held up because Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) is concerned about Sunstein's embrace of certain animal rights arguments. The Hill reports:

Chambliss worries that Sunstein’s innovative legal views may someday lead to a farmer having to defend himself in court against a lawsuit filed on behalf of his chickens or pigs.

Chambliss told The Hill that he has blocked Sunstein’s nomination because the law professor “has said that animals ought to have the right to sue folks.”

Indeed, in his 2004 book, Animal Rights: Current Debates and New Directions, Sunstein wrote: “I will suggest that animals should be permitted to bring suit, with human beings as their representatives, to prevent violations of current law.”

More specifically, he wrote: “Laws designed to protect animals against cruelty and abuse should be amended or interpreted to give a private cause of action against those who violate them, so as to allow private people to supplement the efforts of public prosecutors.”

Chambliss said he is also concerned about Sunstein’s potential impact on “a number of other issues relative to agriculture.”

The story also suggests that Chambliss could lift the hold once he has had the opportunity to speak with Sunstein directly some time after the July 4 recess. Sunstein's nomination has already cleared committee, and I would be surprised if there were a serious effort to prevent his confirmation.

deathsinger:
I will suggest that Chambliss should be permitted to waste a little of Sunstein's time, but can we just confirm him and move on to bigger issues?
6.30.2009 3:09pm
ruuffles (mail) (www):
William O. Douglas's dream lives on!
6.30.2009 3:11pm
wm13:
Doubtless Sunstein will be confirmed, but his book is a striking sample of the arrogance of law professors, who are given guaranteed lifetime employment, and produce so little in return except vituperation and trouble for the farmers who feed us and the other productive members of society.
6.30.2009 3:17pm
CJColucci:
What the hell kind of reason is Sunstein's views on animal rights to hold up Sunstein's nomination for a post that has nothing to do with animal rights? Maybe he favors gay marriage. Maybe he's a Cubs fan. This is just juvenile.
6.30.2009 3:21pm
Oren:
wm13, farming is just another job like driving a truck or building a bridge -- why do farmers deserve such special consideration, especially when we can do their job with basically no manpower anyway?
6.30.2009 3:28pm
rosetta's stones:
Never mind the job nomination, shouldn't we be focusing on getting this poor man the medical attention he so desperately needs?
6.30.2009 3:33pm
rosetta's stones:
“I will suggest that animals should be permitted to bring suit, with human beings as their representatives, to prevent violations of current law.”

.
.
.

I mean, WTF?!
6.30.2009 3:34pm
interruptus:
This seems kind of silly. Is Sunstein being appointed to a post that has any sort of power at all over animal rights? Does Chambliss even honestly believe that he'll derail the nomination? Unless the answer to at least one of those questions is "yes", it seems a bit desperate on Chambliss's part, fishing for issues to grandstand on.
6.30.2009 3:41pm
KenB (mail):
As a law student over 30 years ago, I did not know how to evaluate the practical effects of "Should Trees Have Standing." I now shudder at the thought. Our society would never accomplish anything again.
6.30.2009 3:43pm
geokstr (mail):
Between Sunstein's expansive view of animal rights and Koh being a transnationalist, how far can we be to falling in line with:

Switzerland Places Ban on the Humiliation of Plants

After all, broccoli's got rights too.
6.30.2009 3:53pm
ras (mail):
When the Pigs can sue to take over the farm, all animals will be equal at last. But ... and this now becomes a serious question ... can the other animals sue the Pigs?
6.30.2009 4:03pm
wm13:
Oren, truck drivers and construction workers count as productive members of society in my book, just as much as farmers. None of them has guaranteed lifetime employment, and none of them uses his or her position to think of ways to cause misery and unhappiness for other people the way Sunstein does.

If you deny that being sued is misery and unhappiness, then you don't have much litigation experience.
6.30.2009 4:05pm
Thales (mail) (www):
It is so felicitous that Chambliss won that run-off election so that he could continue to represent the good people of Georgia on the crucial issues of the day.
6.30.2009 4:07pm
A Law Dawg:
It is so felicitous that Chambliss won that run-off election so that he could continue to represent the good people of Georgia on the crucial issues of the day.


Thales, politics down here in Georgia are dominated by animal rights questions including animal standing, animal marriage, and animal houses.
6.30.2009 4:11pm
mcbain:

Maybe he's a Cubs fan.


Well I suppose there are things that are dumber than believing animals have rights.
6.30.2009 4:13pm
GULC 2009 Grad:
"[H]is book is a striking sample of the arrogance of law professors, who are given guaranteed lifetime employment, and produce so little in return except vituperation and trouble for the farmers who feed us and the other productive members of society."

***

This is no excuse for the abhorrent treatment of animals. Furthermore, your argument for lifetime employment is incorrect. Lifetime tenure is the reason why our country has utilized lifetime judicial appointments. How have such large-scale pig, cow, and chicken conglomerates even been allowed to open their doors? These companies are even worse for our country than big tobacco, and they have used their slaughterhouse profits to silence lawmakers.

So let's guess how they're making these profits. These large factories now bus in undocumented or poverty-stricken workers to kill hundreds of thousands of animals in extremely dangerous and unsanitary conditions, causing virus outbreaks and widespread water contamination. Even irrigation systems for spinach have been tainted from the uncontrollable animal run-off.

Sunstein is one of those rare people who was in a position to speak out for what is destroying our planet. (Furthermore, how is a cow different than a dog other than recently-embraced societal usage? His argument is not that far-fetched.) The current system is based on cruel and malevolent practices that do nothing but demonstrate the moral depravity of the modern day "farmer."
6.30.2009 4:16pm
mcbain:

they have used their slaughterhouse profits to silence lawmakers.


silence lawmakers? I mean I will be the first to point out the stupidity of our representatives, but even they are not idiotic enough to suggest that animals have any rights (beyond the right to be delicious of course).
6.30.2009 4:33pm
zippypinhead:
Somehow, this issue seems appropriate for a reprise and slight modification of that infamous opinion, Fisher v. Lowe, 333 N.W.2d 67 (Mich. App. 1983), that not only found its way into the West Regional Reporter System, but also into a few law school casebooks over the years:

We thought that we would never see
A suit to compensate... a flea.
A suit whose claim in tort is prest,
Upon a mangled bug's behest.
[rest of pinhead limerick redacted for humanitarian purposes]

Affirmed.


Poor Professor Sunstein. IMHO this whole confirmation "controversy" is so facially absurd that it properly falls into the category of attractive nuisances for late-night TV comics who've totally run out of good monologue material. And frustrated judicial punsters and poets, of course.
6.30.2009 4:39pm
Bob from Ohio (mail):

Lifetime tenure is the reason why our country has utilized lifetime judicial appointments.


Presented without comment.
6.30.2009 4:39pm
Troll Alert:
How have such large-scale pig, cow, and chicken conglomerates even been allowed to open their doors? These companies are even worse for our country than big tobacco, and they have used their slaughterhouse profits to silence lawmakers.
'Ten-hut! PETA on Deck!!!
6.30.2009 4:41pm
oldMan:
@GULC 2009 Grad:

Bravo, bravo! It's been years since I've laughed so hard at such brilliant satire!
6.30.2009 4:43pm
Cornellian (mail):
Presumably he was looking for a theory upon which private lawsuits could be brought for violations of animal cruelty laws. If he'd wanted conservatives on board, he should have phrased it as looking for a means to reduce the size of government by contracting that work out to the private sector.
6.30.2009 4:54pm
JK:
Yeah, god forbid we allow for the enforcement of laws against animal cruelty. I assume that the position that animals should have a direct cause of action springs from the heavy handed standing rules from cases like Lujan, where the court decided that if the court don't think someone should care whether a law is being enforced they don't get to sue to enforce it.

If an animal rights group gets a statute baning cruelty to animals passed in the legislature (that includes clear language that individuals should have cause of action to enforce it), then they should be able to sue to enforce the law. I don't see why that's a radical idea.

If Chambliss doesn't like animal cruelty laws, he should work to have them appealed, not oppose reasonable legal procedures to enforce those laws.
6.30.2009 4:58pm
JK:
repealed
6.30.2009 4:59pm
zippypinhead:
You know, Professor Sunstein should really be praying that this issue doesn't turn into his primary legacy. The last time a Harvard law professor spent too much time thinking about animal litigation - the infamous contracts case Sherwood v. Walker - he attained immortaility for this poem.

Which I still occasionally have nightmares about my 1L contracts professor reading out loud in class... the whole thing... all five stanzas... after first ceremonially locking the classroom door so nobody could escape... Ah me!--Ah moo!
6.30.2009 5:01pm
mcbain:
JK,

as a matter of policy should i be able to sue you for running a red light i see you do so?
6.30.2009 5:02pm
GULC 2009 Grad:
In response to mcbain and those who make light of Sunstein's arguments: If you have any pets, someone in another part of the world would gladly have it for dinner (cats, dogs, birds--oh wait, we eat those here). And, as mcbain asserted, it has no rights, other than the right to be delicious.

But, let's make sure that before they eat it, they store it inhumanely, without room to move (so it's so weak it can't stand on its legs for more than one step) or sunlight (who knows why) and that they pump it full of hormones to produce lots of milk first (if it's female) or lock it in a veal shed so it gets no exercise (if it's male), and, finally, that it is then slaughtered without any anesthetic and as cheaply as possible--which probably means that it will bleed to death slowly. Oh, and, let's feed it the remains of other animals--that would save some money.


I don't think tastiness should be an argument for animal or worker abuse, disease proliferation, air/water pollution, or the deaths that result from all of these factors (which are not minimal), but hey, maybe I'm wrong.
6.30.2009 5:09pm
JK:
McBain,
If legislation is passed that explicitly states that you should have a cause of action to do so (uprooting the common law baseline that you do not), then yes (I believe this was the case in Lujan, although it been years since I read it).
6.30.2009 5:09pm
Aultimer:
How is using the power of government to enforce morals laws on behalf of property (animals) MORE boneheaded than any other morals laws? Uncle Sam is the nanny, or he isn't.
6.30.2009 5:14pm
Dan28 (mail):

(I believe this was the case in Lujan, although it been years since I read it).

No. Lujan was about Constitutional standing, not statutory.
6.30.2009 5:21pm
rosetta's stones:
So, if I can't successfully take you down in litigation, I just go find out your dog's name, or one of your fish, and go for it?

Sounds good. And it opens up a whole new field of shyster, and I didn't think that was possible. "I'm an expert in zoological representation. You'll find no better office for a cat to pad in and find justice."
6.30.2009 5:24pm
JK:
It was decided on the basis of constitutional standing, in that the constitution did not allow standing (no "injury in fact") thus making it irrelevant whether the statute created standing for individuals or not, but I believe the statute did create statutory standing.

If it was "about" statutory standing it would have been a no-brainer, as the statute explicitly created standing.
6.30.2009 5:25pm
mcbain:
Aultimer,

How is using the power of government to enforce morals laws on behalf of property (animals) MORE boneheaded than any other morals laws? Uncle Sam is the nanny, or he isn't.


Well we don't have to jump at every moronic idea that comes along. This is why it is important to ridicule arguments like this before someone organizes a Czar position in the government to promote them.

JK,

How does this work? does every person have a right to sue you if you do something illegal? the first one that saw you? or the first one to file the lawsuit?

GLUC,

lock it in a veal shed so it gets no exercise (if it's male)

No excercise is the whole point, the meat becomes more tender that way.
6.30.2009 5:30pm
Reducto ad Absurdum (www):
as a matter of policy should i be able to sue you for running a red light i see you do so?
No, but the next of kin of the bug that splattered on your windshield while committing the infraction should...
6.30.2009 5:36pm
JK:
McBain, don't be obtuse, I'm not advocating for private prosecutions in general (although they have them in Brittan, so it's not that crazy of an idea), I just don't have a problem with allowing the legislature to allow for the private enforcement of certain statutes when it decides that will be the most efficient way to enforce the statute.

Obviously a system of private "prosecution" would be nuts in the realm of traffic laws, but that doesn't mean it's a generally illegitimate way to enforce any statute.

You'd think in principle conservatives wouldn't have a problem with putting the cost of enforcing a statute on the parties that lobbied for it rather than the taxpayer, but I guess that's subservient to the idea that one ought to be able to torture his or her own animals regardless of whether that behavior has been deemed illegal.
6.30.2009 5:42pm
Blue:
GLUC: I don't think tastiness should be an argument for animal or worker abuse, disease proliferation, air/water pollution, or the deaths that result from all of these factors (which are not minimal), but hey, maybe I'm wrong."

[Blue eats a piece of nice, crispy bacon]

BLUE: Ummm, good! If that's wrong I don't ever want to be right!
6.30.2009 5:43pm
Blue:
And imagine the lawsuit possibilities when the anti-circumcision crowd get to sue the spay-and-neuter pet activists! A great time will be had by all!
6.30.2009 5:44pm
Houston Lawyer:
I should be able to sue if you overcook a fine piece of steak, because we all know how wrong that is.
6.30.2009 5:45pm
mcbain's #1 fan:
oh mcbain... "No excercise [sic] is the whole point, the meat becomes more tender that way." Such a strong sexy thing to say. If only we had a picture so we could see how manly &strong you are.

Anyway, hopefully if Cass Sunstein is confirmed he won't have as much time to flood the world with terrible law review articles about how technocrats and economists and "incentives" etc. are really really awesome.

Also, Saxby Chambliss is a buffoon.
6.30.2009 5:48pm
Ken Arromdee:
I will suggest that Chambliss should be permitted to waste a little of Sunstein's time, but can we just confirm him and move on to bigger issues?

I think if someone says something that's bats**t insane, that's relevant to being confirmed for a position, even if it's not something people in that position would have control over.
6.30.2009 5:50pm
Michael Vick's Sock Puppet:
No excercise is the whole point, the meat becomes more tender that way.
McBain is a charter member of PETA: "People Eating Tasty Animals"


[as for the nom de blog above - seriously, somebody please explain what, if anything, would have been accomplished by giving Vick's dogs standing to sue him? Methinks the Commonwealth of Virginia did just fine by the dogs under existing animal cruelty law without the pit bulls being named plaintiffs in some bizarre contingency fee action]
6.30.2009 5:50pm
RPT (mail):
Sonny Perdue speaks!
6.30.2009 5:53pm
interruptus:

I think if someone says something that's bats**t insane, that's relevant to being confirmed for a position, even if it's not something people in that position would have control over.

That gets into some pretty tricky waters. For example, is believing that Joseph Smith walked on water in a lake in the United States in the mid 19th century "batsh**t insane"? Should we be digging into all sorts of philosophical and religious views people might hold that are unrelated to their job, to find ones that seem crazy and outside the mainstream?
6.30.2009 5:53pm
mcbain:
to my number one fan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mcbain-mendoza.JPG

This is an old picture, I have lost some weight when I switched to the atkins diet.
6.30.2009 5:58pm
I don't wanna be right either:
6.30.2009 6:01pm
I don't wanna be right either:


www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12840743
6.30.2009 6:05pm
martinned (mail) (www):

You'd think in principle conservatives wouldn't have a problem with putting the cost of enforcing a statute on the parties that lobbied for it rather than the taxpayer, but I guess that's subservient to the idea that one ought to be able to torture his or her own animals regardless of whether that behavior has been deemed illegal.

Such a thing already exist, complete with SCOTUS imprematur. It's called a qui tam action. Of course, under that statute standing is not a problem because the plaintiff gets to keep some of the damages obtained, but still, it's a case of privatising enforcement.

In antitrust, of course, there is also a lot of private litigation, at least in the US. Unfortunately, research shows that private Clayton Act cases predominantly follow a successful DoJ action, when the plaintiff can benefit from the presumption of 15 USC 16. (I have no cite at hand at the moment, but an actual academic paper to this effect does exist.)
6.30.2009 6:08pm
diet advice:
McDonalds McBain,

The Atkins diet has clogged your arteries for good. Hope you enjoy the irreparable damage to your circulation system and impending heart attack or stroke, not to mention your likely kidney disease or gout. Peace out.
6.30.2009 6:17pm
Elliot123 (mail):
"why do farmers deserve such special consideration, especially when we can do their job with basically no manpower anyway?"

We? Who is "we?" Lawyers?
6.30.2009 6:19pm
SupremacyClaus (mail) (www):
Sunstein represents the cutting edge in ultimate lawyer rent seeking. There will be an infinite amount of animals and plants with standing. If cute mammals get standing, it is phyllist to deny standing to bacteria. You will need a fair hearing and a court order to wipe your kitchen counter with ammonia, eradicating billions of bacteria without due process.

These clients have cheap maintenance. They are non-verbal and cannot object to the consumption of most of any settlement by legal fees. Perfect clients.
6.30.2009 6:50pm
diet advice:
Thank you SupremacyClaus, but we learned about the facetiousness of the slippery-slope argument in the first week of law school.
6.30.2009 6:54pm
SupremacyClaus (mail) (www):
But slippery slopes are everywhere the lawyer prevails. They are absolutely true. It started by giving the vote to non-landed males. Look who can vote now, and the shape of our nation, as a result.
6.30.2009 6:57pm
Ken Arromdee:
That gets into some pretty tricky waters. For example, is believing that Joseph Smith walked on water in a lake in the United States in the mid 19th century "batsh**t insane"?

I wouldn't count it, because "illogical" isn't the same as "insane". Someone who believes that Joseph Smith performed miracles likely believes it because of all sorts of reasons related to social pressures. That has no bearing on whether that belief is true, but it has a lot of bearing on what the belief says about his general state of mind.

If there was no such thing as Mormons, and he decided to join a 200 person cult who believes that their founder walks on water, that would be different. It's the same belief, but it was probably arrived at in a different manner.

That being said, I do think that believing one Mormon doctrine might imply belief in another that's more relevant. For instance, if he believes Joseph Smith walked on water he might also believe a bunch of bad archeology, which should disqualify him from any science-related position the same way that being a creationist would.
6.30.2009 7:04pm
Ex-Fed (mail) (www):
I don't think it benefit the animals much to let lawyers file class actions for them. The lawyers would make nice money, of course. But animals can't use coupons.
6.30.2009 7:12pm
martinned (mail) (www):

I don't think it benefit the animals much to let lawyers file class actions for them. The lawyers would make nice money, of course. But animals can't use coupons.

Theoretically, it would elevate animal welfare law above the level of dead letter.
6.30.2009 7:35pm
mcbain:

McDonalds McBain,

The Atkins diet has clogged your arteries for good. Hope you enjoy the irreparable damage to your circulation system and impending heart attack or stroke, not to mention your likely kidney disease or gout. Peace out.


well that convinced me, I am switching to fried kelp.

But seriously this nastiness stems from the fact that people who advocate the comical point of view of the animal rights activists lie to themselves daily that if the public knew how meat is made, it would turn vegetarian. This is why it makes them incensed when they see someone who knows exactly how meat is made, and is comfortable with it.
6.30.2009 7:54pm
rosetta's stones:
SupremacyClaus:
"Sunstein represents the cutting edge in ultimate lawyer rent seeking. There will be an infinite amount of animals and plants with standing. If cute mammals get standing, it is phyllist to deny standing to bacteria. You will need a fair hearing and a court order to wipe your kitchen counter with ammonia, eradicating billions of bacteria without due process.

These clients have cheap maintenance. They are non-verbal and cannot object to the consumption of most of any settlement by legal fees. Perfect clients."


Ok, I nominate this post for the Innertube Hall of Fame.
6.30.2009 8:09pm
Kirk:
Too bad they can't both lose.
6.30.2009 8:17pm
Oren:

If you deny that being sued is misery and unhappiness, then you don't have much litigation experience.

It's miserable, but I don't blame the lawyer for suing, I blame the legislature that passed the law. If the law says you cannot put lipstick on a pig, why would you blame the lawyer and not the law?
6.30.2009 9:42pm
Don't Panic:
I, for one, welcome our porcine overlords!
6.30.2009 11:06pm
Ricardo (mail):
The U.S. has already largely embraced very basic animal rights. Horse slaughterhouses are outlawed in all 50 states, I believe, and I don't think a dog slaughterhouse would be legal anywhere. Cockfighting is illegal most places and there are strict federal regulations concerning animal experimentation.

On the other hand, the way livestock are kept and slaughtered for meat can be pretty horrifying in some cases. It's not clear Michael Vick's dogs suffered more than pigs do on some farms. Yet one gets criminally prosecuted while the other doesn't. Americans may continue to live with this very selective view of animals rights but I suspect the trend is going to more recognition of animals rights rather than less.

I can't speak to the legal or constitutional issues, but allowing a private cause of action for violations of an animal rights statute doesn't seem that outrageous to me, provided the one who brings the suit pays the others' legal fees if the case fails.
7.1.2009 5:05am
Aultimer:

mcbain:

Well we don't have to jump at every moronic idea that comes along.

We don't? How on earth did we get prohibition, sodomy laws, abstinence-only public sex education and gun control, then?
7.1.2009 10:48am
Thorley Winston (mail) (www):
In response to mcbain and those who make light of Sunstein's arguments: If you have any pets, someone in another part of the world would gladly have it for dinner (cats, dogs, birds--oh wait, we eat those here). And, as mcbain asserted, it has no rights, other than the right to be delicious.


Correct but I’m pretty sure that the owner would be able to sue for the theft and/or destruction of their pet and possibly file criminal charges as they could anytime property is stolen and/or harmed. In other words the owner (human) has rights but the pet does not*. Nor should they.

* Anyone who tries to take this statement hoping to make some facile comparison to slavery is an idiot.
7.1.2009 11:38am

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