The San Francisco Board of Supervisors has issued this nonbinding resolution:
Resolution urging Cardinal William Levada, in his capacity has head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Vatican, to withdraw his discriminatory and defamatory directive that Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of San Francisco stop placing children in need of adoption with homosexual households.
WHEREAS, It is a insult to all San Franciscans when a foreign country, like the Vatican, meddles with and attempts to negatively influence this great City's existing and established customs and traditions such as the right of same-sex couples to adopt and care for children in need; and
WHEREAS, The statements of Cardinal Levada and the Vatican that "Catholic agencies should not place children for adoption in homosexual households," and "Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children" are absolutely unacceptable to the citizenry of San Francisco; and,
WHEREAS, Such hateful and discriminatory rhetoric is both insulting and callous, and shows a level of insensitivity and ignorance which has seldom been encountered by this Board of Supervisors; and
WHEREAS, Same sex couples are just as qualified to be parents as are heterosexual couples; and
WHEREAS, Cardinal Levada is a decidedly unqualified representative of his former home city, and of the people of San Francisco and the values they hold dear; and
WHEREAS, The Board of Supervisors urges Archbishop Niederauer and the Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of San Francisco to defy all discriminatory directives of Cardinal Levada; now, therefore, be it
RESOLVED, That the Board of Supervisors urges Cardinal William Levada, in his capacity as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Vatican (formerly known as Holy Office of the Inquisition), to withdraw his discriminatory and defamatory directive that Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of San Francisco stop placing children in need of adoption with homosexual households.
The San Francisco city government, it seems to me, is quite entitled to express its views on gay rights questions, and to condemn groups that, in its view, express "hateful" ideas. It's entitled to do this even when those groups are religious groups -- whether the Catholic Church, some Islamic denomination, the Church of Scientology, or any other religious group.
It's possible that expressing views on a religious group's purely theological claims (as opposed to claims related to worldly conduct that affects other people) might violate the Establishment Clause. There is even some language in the Court's opinions, which condemn "endorsement or disapproval of religion," that suggests that any condemnation of a religious organization by name would beunconstitutional. But it seems to me that the right rule is that government officials must be able to comment on religious groups when their actions touch on secular matters, for instance arguing that terrorism is antithetical to the proper understanding of Islam, or that the Catholic Church's views on adoption by homosexual couples are wrong.
Still, though the resolution is constitutionally permissible, isn't there something a bit troubling about it?
Start with the old those-Catholics-are-controlled-by-a-foreign-potentate thing that has historically often been used to discredit American Catholic politicians, and that seems to me to have no relevance to the moral issues involved here. Opposition to same-sex adoption is right or wrong with no regard to whether the leaders of the opposition are in Italy or here.
Then we have waving the bloody shirt -- the centuries-old bloody shirt -- of pointing out that Cardinal Levada's organization was once "known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition." Yes, it was (this was not the Spanish Inquisition but the "Roman Inquisition, [which] was intended to combat Protestantism, but ... is perhaps best known historically for its condemnation of Galileo"), but hasn't just a little bit of time passed since then, and hasn't the Church slightly altered the practices that gave the Inquisition a bad name?
Levada's position today is really no different than the position of any leading theologian who is helping set policy for a hierarchical church, whether a foreign or domestic one, and whether one that has a long-ago history of physical abuse of heterics or not. Over the centuries, many religious groups and organizations have done some pretty bad things; it seems to me irrelevant and, especially for a government entity, needlessly divisive to dredge up their past sins in criticizing the actions of their present leaders.
It seems to me that if the San Francisco Board of Supervisors really wanted to act as "the government of [a] tolerant community" by "treat[ing] its minority populations with care and respect" (I quote here from another recent resolution, to avoid "creat[ing] a divisive atmosphere," and to "reflect the diversity of the community," it should have avoided suggesting that serious Catholics who follow the Church hierarchy's teachings are agents of a "meddl[ing]" "foreign country," or irrelevantly faulted their cherished institutions for those institutions' centuries-old sins.
Many thanks to Marty Lederman, who pointed out the matter to me, though I should make clear that he doesn't object to the Supervisors' general criticisms, and shares their view of the merits of the policy question (though not the religious one).
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Pot, meet kettle
Feh. As a former San Francisco taxpayer, what I find highly objectionable is not the quotidian mindlessness of the content -- who expects politicians to be insightful or even original? -- but the spectacle of my public servants throwing away a couple grand of my money on a futile gesture that has nothing whatsoever to do with running the damn city. If I'd wanted to pay good money to watch clowns throw pies at each other, I'd've bought a ticket to the circus.
Who better, I guess, than the Board of Supervisors to make this determination?
The city's statement does nothing more than accurately (presumably) name the Cardinal's official organization affiliation and capacity:
How is this different from (hypothetically) a resolution addressed to, say, the U.S. Secretary of Defense, "in his capacity as head of the Department of Defensse (formerly known as the War Department)..."?
It may sound like snarkiness, or waving the bloody shirt, but it's historically accurate, and it identifies the organization unambiguously.
It could also be taken as noting a break from the past, another way of saying "we know you're really representing the new organization and not its historical progenitor".
Not that I think for a moment they meant it that way. I'm just sayin'.
EV's comparison to attacks on Catholic politicians is nonsensical. Those attacks have traditionally been directed at Americans who run for American political office, questioning their loyalties to the US government. Here, we have a Vatican politician (i.e. a Cardinal).
And are you really telling me that if a foreign politician came to this country with the message that jews, or blacks, or white straight people for that matter, were unfit to be adoptive parents, that there wouldn't be some sort of public outrage? It's fine if EV doesn't think that discrimination against gay people isn't as morally offensive as discrimination against straight white people, but it so happens that the majority of San Franciscans disagree.
Not holding my breath, though.
Get the comfy chair!
And yes, that's how the Church works. But given the circumstances the "foreigner" issue seems apropos.
No one expects the San Fransisco Inquisition! Our weapons are fear, surprise, and a fanatical devotion to the notion that Barry Bonds isn't using 'roids!
A good point, one that I've also made about the SF Board of Supervisors. Even somebody who agreed about this or about passing a resolution that the President should be impeached should be concerned that the Board of Supervisors finds it appropriate to use resources (time, money, etc.) to do this but can't find the money (was it $100k?) to adapt the fire hydrants in the city so that the hoses from fire departments in nearby municipalities will fit.
What a bunch of maroons.
if that happened, what would be a good name for the now nameless city?
I have several that wouldn't be appropriate for this forum. Perhaps "soon-to-be-used nuclear weapons test site"?
It controls a majority of the Supreme Court... (nominally).
The SF Board of Supes are a bunch of left-wing whack-jobs (but that's another story).
I think this comment was supposed to go in the science fiction thread.
Gay couples can make excellent parents, same as heterosexuals. Why can't the church accept that?
Yes, because as we all know, gay people and pedophiles are the same thing. (???)
The Pope isn't the Church.
Yeah, that "ancient wisdom" that's all of about a year old. The Catholic church had already been placing children with gay couples for adoption for years in SF (and Boston too) and are only now stopping because the Vatican has ordered them to do so, despite overwhelming support on the ground by the Catholics who actually run these agencies for continuing to consider gay couples. The Catholic church is entitled to adopt any position it likes (though it's not immune to the general law of the land) but don't pretend this year's position is some kind of "ancient wisdom."
It seems to me that there is a clear distinction between a government official "commenting," and an official resolution passed by an official governmental body. In the first case, the government official is exercising his/her rights the same as anyone else could (even if more people pay attention to the official), and in the second case, it is an official act fo the government.
Recall that the Supreme Court held in Epperson v. Arkansas (1968) — that "The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion."
This resolution is clearly a violation of that neutrality.
There are a lot of people in the Church leadership who are frustrated that the nominal number of Catholics in the world, including in positions of power, doesn't translate into a much more activist government role in preventing people from transgressing the current official Church teachings on issues of sexual morality and abortion.
So long as the Church is making efforts to pressure public officials who are members of the Church to act in certain ways, I think Church policy is fair game for political condemnation and even official resistance. If the Church sticks to teaching its beliefs that homosexuality and abortion are wrong and doesn't try to force people who don't agree with the Church's beliefs to conform, nobody's going to complain about excessive control from Rome.
Elais,
Is there currently a law in San Francisco mandating that same-sex couples be treated equally in consideration for adoption?
I know that Boston passed a law that led to their current brouhaha, but I wasn't aware that San Francisco did.
Which is why the Vatican is asking the San Francisco Archdiocese to act in accordance with the Catholic faith, since there is no conflict with current law.
Yes, because as we all know, gay people and pedophiles are the same thing. (???)"
BruceB,
I believe EricK was referring to what happened in Boston with the Catholic Adoption programs after Boston passed a law mandating equal consideration of same-sex couples: the adoption agency folded up and Boston is now left without one of the largest, if not the largest, adoption agency in the region.
Regardless of the debate over same-sex couple adoptions, losing the Catholic Church's adoption services will have a big impact on adoptions for the next couple of years.
And
"The Catholic church is entitled to adopt any position it likes (though it's not immune to the general law of the land) but don't pretend this year's position is some kind of 'ancient wisdom.'"
Cornellian, BobN
I would think that we can distinguish between an institution's position and some individual's who act within that institution.
Merely because a number of Catholics from San Francisco support something, or even from the US for that matter, does not make it official Church policy. And even if it did, the US Catholic population only constitutes 8% of the worldwide Catholic population...
The Catholic Church isn't a democracy, and regional Catholic groups don't get to set their own policy.
Nevertheless, contrary to your assertions, it is the relatively recent approval of same-sex couples in this country that has rubbed against the grain of Catholic teaching for many centuries, not the other way around.
Source? ILGA still exists today as a unification of 40 gay rights groups. ILGA expelled NAMBLA 12 years ago and still is being funded and still is supported by gay rights groups. I'm tired of unsubstantiated, unsourced allegations.
There has been a trend in this country, as regards Catholics, that Americans can pick and choose what parts of Catholicism they wish to partake of. This trend was being reveresed before the current Pope was elected. Catholic Universities were being told what they could teach and what they could not teach. Go with Church teachings or lose the Church's name and blessings, and funding. It is no different for Catholic Charities.
Those that can't or won't abide by these kinds of decisions can simply stop calling themselves, Catholic. Simply put, if you don't believe, then don't profess to believe.
It seems to me that on the one hand, certain people abhor the idea that people of faith would bring into their service within the government their own unique world views, and on the other hand applaud a government body for interfering with the workings of a religion.
So much for the concept of Government remaining neutral as regards religion.
trotsky - Where there is no Rome, you'd have the wild divergence of Orthodoxy where you have to seriously inquire as to the local policy on whether a menstruating woman can enter the church. And yes, this does change from one individual church/monastary to another. No, I'm not kidding and it pisses my wife off tremendously (she's Orthodox).
In a worldwide institution, such unifying directives as necessary, more likely than not, are going to come from a foreign land. That doesn't make the Church a foreign institution any more than membership in the Anglican Communion make episcopalians members of a foreign church
BobN - While the Pope's position isn't the necessarily the Church (Popes have been wrong) he is hardly alone in his opinions on homosexual activity. Nor is he alone in viewing homosexual attraction as a burden and challenge, not something that's just a nifty variation in God's garden. Other opinions matter but they overwhelmingly support the current Pope.
Kendall - To this day, the ILGA refuses to provide documentation to the UN demonstrating that they have no pro-pedophilia groups in their membership. This is why they once again failed to regain observer status at the UN.
Al Norris - There is a bit of picking and choosing permissible in the Catholic Church. The Church itself is an umbrella organization of over 20 different member Churches. In joining the Catholic Church, you generally pick one and stick with it. One can enter any of the parishes of any member Church and fulfill one's religious obligations and it isn't unheard of for people with serious disagreements to attend liturgy in another Rite for a very long time (sometimes for the rest of the individual's life). The unity of the Church while it contains such diverse expressions of the Faith is something a lot of people aren't aware of.
There's some truth in what you say however I think its also reasonable that the groups not feel the need to sign such a statement. Personally if I was interviewing for a job and I was asked to sign a statement "I do not molest children or support child molestors" I'd most likely be outraged as well. I'm not a child molestor, I think pedophilia is abhorrent and even asking that question assumes enough to be repulsive.
However, with that said, Clayton Cramer contended that as a result of ILGA's attempt to sever NAMBLA from itself gay groups cut off their funds. THAT is what I'm asking for sources on.
Oh yeah, from the Wikipedia article about NAMBLA: Keep insisting that there's no connection there--but the evidence is pretty clear on this.
The quote about groups resigning occurred A) Later B) in response to a rather insidious request. Its a little like asking someone to sign an oath of loyalty even if they're already a citizen of the United States. Individuals should be PRESUMED to be loyal citizens. Peoples hould be PRESUMED not to be child molestors without requiring denial. Pink-Triangle Press did NOT resign when NAMBLA was expelled in June 1994 and Pink-Triangle Press did NOT resign because of an effort to EXPELL NAMBLA.
The ILGA had child molester organizations within it--and while they did finally expel NAMBLA and a couple of equivalent European organizations, there was a considerable fight over it, and a number of votes by board members not to do so.
I know that a lot of homosexuals find pedophilia abhorrent. But I also know that there's a sizeable gay subculture that doesn't see pedophilia as a big deal. I also get emails from gay men who try to make a distinction between pedophilia and ephebophilia--that it is definitely not okay to have sex with five year olds--but you know, 12, 13, well, that's another matter.
NAMBLA used to march in gay pride parades in San Francisco and some other cities without opposition or protest. I've seen videos of them in San Francisco. Channel 4 in San Francisco at one point in the early 1990s went to gay bookstores there, and found that 4 out of 5 of them were carrying NAMBLA's publication the BulliTEN. When it became politically inexpedient for NAMBLA to appear in gay pride parades, suddenly there was opposition to them.
Kendall, I'll believe you when you tell me that you find pedophilia abhorrent. I would like to believe that this sentiment is universal, or nearly so, in the gay community. From the conversations that I have had, I would say otherwise. Some years ago, a gay activist lectured me about this subject saying that it was a painful subject to raise, because the gay community was "divided" about NAMBLA. As near as I can tell, that's an accurate statement.
Why would anyone willingly converse with child molestors and coprophiles?
It isn't like NAMBLA's goals and purpose weren't blatantly obvious. That the ILGA needed to be told that it had to exclude pedophiles tells me quite a bit about the gay activist community.
Kendall--I gather that your statement, quoted above, was meant to prove a disassociation between gays and pedophiles. I, as someone who is generally sceptical of those who draw ties between the two, found it to have the opposite effect. It is a huge black-mark against gay-rights organizations (and, by extenstion, the gay community) that up until 1994 they willingly associated and found common cause with a bunch of child-molestation advocates. I don't know the history here so perhaps I'm missing something, but I found this very distrubing.
I really didn't much care about what homosexuals did, until NAMBLA's involvement in the gay pride parade came up. I was genuinely surprised, because I assumed that homosexuals looked at child molesters the way straight people did. I was very surprised to find out that I was wrong. I also found that my formerly quite liberal view of homosexuality was utterly mistaken.
In truth Clayton has a small point. There is one area of commonality between gay groups and NAMBLA's position. SOME age of consent laws discriminate against homosexual couples. An example of this is Matthew Limon and his experience in Kansas. Matthew Limon was 18 when he had consensual oral sex with a 14 year old boy. If Matthew or the younger boy had been a girl he would have received about 6 months in prison. He originally got 17 years until the Kansas Supreme Court overturned it. Here's an article about that case.
While I do not support pedophilia or any form of child molestation I do question laws of that nature which treat underage heterosexual sex and underage homosexual sex differently. That does HAPPEN to be an area where NAMBLA and I think most gay groups agree. I do not believe however that most gay groups for example support the ELIMINATION of the age of consent, nor do I think most gay groups support sexual relations between very old and very very very young men.
It is fact that IGLA's previous standards did not preclude organizations like NAMBLA. So what exactly are IGLA standards now? That is what the question truly is. The fact that the question can be worded, "do you support child molestors?" is germane to why IGLA is not currently accepted by the UN. All IGLA need do is provide standards, like any other organization, that are inaccordance to the UN's standards.
I'm sure that Catholic Charities is offended for being asked to support homosexuality just as much as San Francisco's Board of Supervisors is apparently offended for associating with an organization that supports homophobia. However, neither were so offended that they were not willing to put in writing what their standards for affiliation are. I suspect it was because they were certain of their convictions.
Although I think boycotting someone is in the prerogative of a local government, for them to actually contact and try and influence a the actions of a foriegn state, would IMHO fall much more into practicing diplomacy than a boycott.
If they wanted to make an argument for the different treatment being an equal protection argument, I can understand that, and agree. There were a lot of people who saw no reason to treat heterosexual statutory rape as a less serious crime--it isn't. But this "due process liberty interest" argument--especially in conjunction with the cases that the ACLU cited as part of that footnote--suggest that the ACLU believes in the constitutional right of minors to have sex with adults--which in practice, means the right of adults to manipulate minors into sex.
Of course, the ACLU is also defending NAMBLA in the Curley civil suit as well, so I guess that I should not be surprised.
However I think ILGA should not be an observing member of the UN for the same reason the US state department yesterday said the US will not run for membership of the Human Rights Council. It is true that ILGA has a questionable past but it is equally true the UN is riddled with hypocrisy (Syria and Sudan being members of the HRC? LIBYA? Please). ILGA's major policy mistake is valuing and wishing for UN recognition.
What are the other cases that the ACLU referenced with respect to this due process liberty interest?
Is there any question as to what the ACLU would consider an appropriate state law about sex with minors?
Frankly that's completely ridiculous. Are you suggesting that Log Cabin Republicans are affiliated with either the ACLU or NAMBLA? I utterly and completely reject that assertion. Gay groups are as diverse as anything. Making that conflation is like saying the KKK which is a religiously based organization run by a Baptist Minister (Thomas Robb is the current National Director) which was formerly run by David Duke (a repeated strong republican candidate for national and state office) cannot be separated from Baptists or from the Republican party (or the Democrats for that matter since good ol' Robert Byrd was a Grand Wizard of the KKK which I'm sure you know and would point out if I didn't). Of course none of that is logically connectable, but its the same analogy you're making.
An organization that, in the past, contained such groups can be reasonably presumed to have lost that presumption. You can't expel an organization unless they are first a member.
If someone asks "When did you stop beating your wife?" and you respond with a "1994," then you really have no place taking umbrage with the question.
Actually, on matters of doctrine, especially where there is any dispute, he is.
That's like saying the Establishment clause sprang into existence with Madeleine Murry O'Hare. The doctrines in question are as old as the Church, the recent failure of some agencies of the Church to comply with them until disciplined notwithstanding.
Those public officials, if they disagree with the Church, are free to not belong to the Church. It's that simple. If they belong, they should adhere, and there's nothing wrong with the Church saying so. The PUBLIC OFFICIAL is fair game for BELONGING, but the internal policies of the Church are no one's business but the members, and depending on the doctrines of a given denomination, the recourse of the members may be limited to voting with their feet. Don't like it, don't worship there.
This view can certainly not be considered libertarian.
Here's an easy test - if the Board of Supervisors had ENDORSED Church doctrine on the matter, and admonished the Archbishop to fidelity rather than disobedience, do you think there would have been a constitutional issue? The Board is presuming to dictate internal Church doctrine and governance. It's Henry VIII all over again.
I submit that the government has no more place stating whether terrorism is a tenet of Islam than it does making proclamations on transubstantiation or the 5 points of Calvinism, or whether a given animal is Kosher, or, for that matter, whether adoption by homosexual couples is objectively right or wrong. Any and all of the above involve government taking a stand on matters of metaphysical belief. The government's proper role, in any libertarian frame of thinking, is to pass laws as to what society will DISALLOW and PUNISH, morality notwithstanding. Is it objectively wrong to drive a car 100 mph? Who knows, but our government by, of, and for the people has determined that, as a society, we will punish that conduct when it is observed. Does Islam advocate terrorism? That's a question for an Imam. Will we tolerate terrorism? Will we make war on terrorists and nations that support them? That is a question of government policy.
The Vatican has helped perpetuate and cover-up thousands of instances of child abuse for a period of over fifty years.
Which one should lose its U.N. Observer status?
Dweeb: The Pope is not infallible in matters of policy and politics, and that's all this is.
And this was precisely what the court held are you explicitly stating that you support the Kansas State Supreme Court's ruling?
"Those public officials, if they disagree with the Church, are free to not belong to the Church. It's that simple. If they belong, they should adhere, and there's nothing wrong with the Church saying so. The PUBLIC OFFICIAL is fair game for BELONGING, but the internal policies of the Church are no one's business but the members, and depending on the doctrines of a given denomination, the recourse of the members may be limited to voting with their feet. Don't like it, don't worship there."
Sorry, dweeb. That's called having one's cake and eating it too. There's nothing wrong with a religious organization (or any other organization) saying that we are private, our positions and policies are internal, and they are nobody's business. There's also nothing wrong with an organization saying that we expect our members to follow our precepts and policies and beliefs when working for the government. But there's something terribly wrong about the same organization claiming both these things. If you want to force your members to vote a certain way, or decide cases a certain way, or conduct their public affairs a certain way, then your policies are a public issue, period, and when people fight back and try to get you to change them, they are not being bigots or anti-Catholic or in any way acting improperly.
If the Church doesn't want this type of scrutiny, it needs to stop the campaign to try and put the hammer down on its believers in public life.
One other thing-- your argument about "don't call yourself a Catholic" is one even the Church doesn't accept. The Church does not, after all, excommunicate anyone based on these things. And the reason is that the mystique of the Church's power is completely a function of its large number of members. A Catholic Church with all the "cafeteria Catholics" expelled would be a tiny sect with little influence in the world. It is important for the Church to claim those members while simultaneously condemning their beliefs. The last thing the Church leadership wants is for people who don't agree with it on sexual morality to stop calling themselves Catholics.
I attended Catholic school for 13 years, and went through all the various and sundry classes. While I am no longer a practicing catholic, i would like to clear up a misconception or two. The Catholic Church is, actually, to a fairly significant extent, a pick and choose religion. The only things Catholics are required to believe in are what the Church refers to as "dogma". this would include things like Jesus was God's son and he rose from the dead, and so forth. There are also moral questions that are answered by dogmatic proclimations, but as i recall, not really all that many. much of it covers the differences that seperate Caholics from Protestants, for instance, belief in "trans-substantiation" (sp?), the belief that the communion host and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus when they are blessed by the priest. Furthermore, at least the last time i checked, the Church doesn't actually hate homosexuals. in fact, just the opposite. When i was last active in the church (about 5 years ago), the official policy was one of "love the sinner, hate the sin." And that policy applied to all forms of sex outside of marriage, and all forms of sex that could not result in procreation.
As with most things, if you need to make a generalization, what you are saying probably isn't true.
CC is an organization under the umbrella of the Church, and as such, the Church does have the right to issue directives to it. The question must be whether the workers at CC choose to follow those directives. As for the city, despite my previously flippant comments earlier on this board and in this post, the fact of the matter is that CC is a private organization. and as such, it ought to be able to determine what its rules and standards are, free of interference from the city. Homosexuality and adoption have become such hot button issues that it is hard to think about them without sensationalizing them. But the City ordering the Vatican around, or somehow forcing CC to allow homosexual adoption is not terribly far off from the City ordering a kosher Jewish eatery to serve non-kosher foods, because thats what most of the citizens in the city like to eat.
From some of these comments, it would seem that the City of S.F. has plenty to worry about in terms of running itself. It shouldn't be taking away time and money to run a private organization.