My post on the Muslim soldier's religious exemption demand reminded me of a point I made several months ago:
Recent years have seen a set of requests by Muslims for exemptions from generally applicable laws and work rules. A Muslim policewoman in Philadelphia, for instance, asked for an exemption from police-uniform rules so that she could wear a Muslim headdress. A few years ago, a Muslim woman in Florida asked that she be allowed to wear a veil in a driver’s license photo. Last year, a Muslim woman in Michigan asked that she be allowed to testify veiled in a small-claims case that she brought.
All these claims were rejected by courts, and likely correctly, though the arguments for the rejection are not open-and-shut. But some of the public reaction I’ve seen to the claims suggests that people are seeing such claims as some sort of special demands by Muslims for special treatment beyond what is given Christians, Jews, and others. And that turns out not to be quite so: While the claims are for religious exemptions for Muslims, they are brought under general religious-exemption statutes that were designed for all religions and that have historically benefited mostly Christians (since there are so many Christians in America).
The Muslim exemption claims are plausible attempts to invoke established American religious-exemption law, and they deserve to be treated as such -- even if there are good reasons for rejecting them, as American religious-exemption law recognizes. Let us briefly review this law, so that this becomes clearer.... [Go here to keep reading.]
This is an excellent example. People of many religious groups have demanded exemptions from military service. In some measure, American law has chosen to expressly accommodate them, for instance through the conscientious objector exemption for people who oppose all wars (which especially benefits Quakers and other pacifist groups). Some members of other religious groups have also demanded exemptions, for instance when they believed that as Catholics they had a religious obligation not to fight in wars they believed to be unjust. Their claims were considered and rejected, using the then-standard constitutional approach for considering religious exemption demands (which has now been reinstated as a federal statutory approach).
The Muslims are just the latest group to do so. Their objections may be somewhat different from the Catholics', in that to some Muslims they may turn on the religious identity of the people on the other side. But other Muslims' objections appear to be very similar to some more familiar religious objections; for instance, in the case I discuss below, one of the quoted Muslim scholarly opinions suggested a just/unjust war distinction that in principle sounds much like the rule asserted by the Catholic objector in Gillette v. U.S.. And more broadly, Muslims are simply taking advantage of a longstanding American tradition -- the tradition of often (though not always) accommodating people's religious objections to generally applicable laws.
Sometimes the Muslim objector's demands should be rejected and sometimes they should be accepted. But they shouldn't be seen as some striking innovation brought here by some foreign interlopers. One commenter to an earlier post about accommodation of Muslim female athletes complained that, when Muslims "come here, we're expected to conform to their rules, not the other way around." Yet that misses the point: One of our rules, which we've followed for centuries, is precisely that sincere religious objections -- whether brought by familiar religions or recently imported ones -- should often (not always, but often) be accommodated.
All Related Posts (on one page) | Some Related Posts:
- Muslim Policewoman Has No Right To Wear a Religious Headscarf on the Job,
- Ban on Headgear, Including Religious Headgear, in Court:
- Religious Accommodations:...
- "Tyson Plant Drops Labor Day for Muslim Holiday":
- American Muslims' Demands for Religious Exemptions:
- Muslim Soldier's Religiously Motivated Refusal to Deploy to Iraq:...
- The Odd Assumption of Islam as Monolith:
- Muslim Policewoman Barred from Wearing Khimar on the Job:
- Does a Female Muslim Police Officer Have a Right To Wear a Khimar?
West Indians want to torture animals as part of their religion.
American Indians want to kill bald eagles.
African leaders want to kill spotted cats in order to display the remains on their shoulders/heads.
Muslims, in a police lineup, want to wear the dark side of a KuKluxKlan headgear.
Freedom or nonsense?
Now I actually think that rule is somewhat merciful. Why enforce some silly government rule when it is deeply important to you personally to not have to follow it? It's the religious exemption that bothers me.
I can hold a belief as deeply and strongly as I possibly can, but I have little shot of winning a free exercise claim. Granted, the Supreme Court did let non-religious people be conscientious objectors when they said:
but I think this case is the exception that proves the rule. You certainly never see prisoner free exercise cases based on deeply held (secular) beliefs, although prisoner RFRA claims are a dime a dozen.
Of course, the First Amendment uses the word religion, so there is a good textual argument. I'm just saying as a theoretical matter that the situation makes little sense.
- If you detest a law because of an incredibly deeply held belief, you can ask a court to exempt you from the law but you will almost certainly lose.
- If you detest a law because of an incredibly deeply held supernatural belief, you can ask a court to exempt you from the law and you will at least get a fair hearing on the issue.
Let’s face it; these accommodations communicate weakness on our part to a political movement masquerading as a religion. Moreover, it’s religion/movement incompatible with the values and institutions of most western nations. The kissing has to stop.
It also seems to me that the ease with which an exmption is obtained (or not) has a vaguely political flavor to it. Favored groups (such as the evangelical movement in the South) get to forbid the rest of us from buying beer Sunday morning, and everyone gets Christmas off, but the poor slob who wants to use peyote in a ceremony is out of luck...
Did you even read either of these posts? We're talking about American citizens here, not foreigners. Does that make any difference in your view, or should we simply kick all Muslims out unless they conform to Judeo-Christian orthodoxy?
“Should accommodation of Jewish US citizens in the US depend on practices of the state of Israel? Should accommodations of Catholics depend on the policies of the Vatican (not the most tolerant of institutions)?”
The answer is “yes.” When I see Israel exclude all other religions, preach worldwide domination, violence and intolerance, then we can stop making accommodations to the practice of Judaism in the US.
Look to what’s happening in Europe to see what our future might look like.
You are simply in error. The debate isn't and cannot be over what Muslims believe. It is we believe that matters. I cannot and will not allow myself to be defined by what others think or believe. If Islam wants to believe (and Catholics believe the same thing) that there is no seperation between Church and State they are free to do so. But they live in America and we don't play that way here. It's not a question of "kissing". It's a question of standing up and fighting for what we believe in. We have a Constitution that has a seperation between church and state and that is what we will do and how Muslims or Catholics or whoever thinks, feel, or believe about that fact is a matter of no consequence in this world.
Other? Group? I don't see any group decision here, just individuals.
With that correction, I'm sure there have been other cases even if I can't cite them. I've no doubt there were ethnic Indians who were citizens but didn't care to enlist with Custer and ethnic Germans who were citizens but didn't want to fight WWI. And if we declared war on Israel tomorrow, I'm sure there would be Jews who wouldn't want to fight that particular war.
“But they live in America and we don't play that way here. It's not a question of "kissing". It's a question of standing up and fighting for what we believe in.”
How do you explain the Muslim footbaths? Paid with tax money at the University of Minnesota and Kansas City International Airport. Both institutions have come up with excuses, but they sound pretty lame. I’ve heard one reporter (forgot his name) give a severe criticism of the Mormon religion because of its past doctrine regarding blacks. When asked about Islam, he refused to comment and then admitted in a rare moment of candor that he was afraid. He thought he might get killed if he criticized Islam.
With almost very few exceptions, no MSM in the US published the Swedish cartoons that caused an outrage in the Muslim community. Thus readers were denied the opportunity to see the cartoons in a news context because the MSM was simply afraid.
Standing up and fighting for what we believe should start with refusing to accommodate Muslims.
On a very practical level I suppose we could say that it's important to keep all god's supernatural warriors from killing people who disagree with them. In many ways they are like chldren. If they aren't kept in their place, they will wreak all kinds of havoc in the lord's name.
Another ignorant supposition that Mr. Zarkov makes in his idea of applying legal reciprocity between "Muslims" and American law is that "Muslims" somehow belong to one particular country, as Israeli Jews with U.S. citizenship belong to Israel. As long as Israel remains a good little boy in his view, we can accommodate it's citizens actions.
This is patently false for several reasons:
1- It supposes that the US is built on a particular faith that accommodates other differing faith. Which is simply not the case.
In fact there are more seemingly positive remarks on Islam from the Founding Fathers than there are about Jews and Judaism. But those same great men realized that their own religious differences would cause strife, and decided to form a gov't of laws not of men.
2- Would an Israeli Arab, Christian or Muslim, if he or she had made this claim after having been granted US citizenship, be permitted in your view to be accommodated?
3- Comparing accommodation of Muslims to accommodation of Jews based the actions of a Jewish state leaves us with several questions, such as:
** Which Muslim state?
** What of those Muslims that are not from those countries?
** What of Muslims that are Americans, and have no ethnic or historical ties to any where else in the world?
Mr. Zarkov not only is your view patently false, but it is based on something foreign to US law all together. Perhaps we should look to the home countries of your ancestors and see they extent to which they grant the freedoms that we have here in the United States, then restrict you and your family based on that.
A silly idea if there ever was one.
Do you believe foreign law should govern US law? Your comments seem to indicate that. That is, the laws and practices in some Muslim countries, according to you, should dictate how American Establishment Clause and Free Exercise, as well as Title VII religious accomodation jurisprudence should apply to Muslims in America.
The guy who keeps challenging the constitutionality of the pledge and the motto argues that he has formed a church of atheism. But those are establishment cases, not free exercise.
I think the idea is silly. What does a belief in atheism entail? Just a non-belief in God and then nothing else. It would be hard to convince a Court that your belief "flowed" from atheism. What passage of the atheist Bible are you going to point to? You would just be an atheist who also happened to believe this other things.
Although, to be fair, the sheer variety of Christianity suggests that they don't get their beliefs from the Bible either....
I think that is the key point. I have sympathy for draftees who are true pacifists who do not believe in killing people like Sargant York, even if I do not agree with their beliefs. Forcing someone who abhors all killing to go out and kill people for you is probably too heavy of a moral burden to force on them.
But once you voluntarily join up you have to fight against whoever the military orders you to fight. In this case he has had 6 years in which to leave the military if he had a problem fighting muslims and almost 5 years to leave if he belives he should not fight Iraqis. And before he joined at all he could reasonably know it was likely he would have to fight Muslims.
Check the case, pete. Sergeant First Class Webster first enlisted in 1985, deployed to Gulf during the first war in 1990-91, and converted to Islam in 1994. However, since he was advised of a probable deployment to Iraq in late 2003, it is likely that he re-enlisted at least once after his conversion and prior to being notified to prepare to deploy to Iraq. Thus, you are correct in concluding that he could have left the Army. He could also have submitted a request to resign. After being notified to prepare to deploy, he submitted a C.O. application, but withdrew it. He missed movement with his unit and submitted another C.O. application the same day. Anyone familiar with military law knows that what is required is for someone claiming C.O. status is that they must still deploy while the application is pending reviw/processing. Thus, his second application was no defense. Further, the Army offered to put him in non-combat roles. SFC Webster was a combat engineer, so one of his more important duties would have been disarming or destroying IEDs -- which have killed many more Muslims than non-Moslims. His refusal to deploy and serve in roles that would not put him in combat against Muslims -- and would likely have placed him in roles that would permit him to save Muslim lives -- undermines his argument.
Even when there was a draft, C.O.s were accommodated. Most served in non-military jobs, including being Smoke Jumpers who fought forest fires in the US. I recall seeing an article about C.O.s who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII, which was very hazardous service. C.O. status has never been an exemption from national service or an exemption from danger. It has been an exemption from serving as a combatant. Among the most famous C.O.s was Army Corporal Desmond Doss, who served as a medic and was decorated by President Truman with the Medal of Honor. CPL Doss refused to carry a weapon, but risked his life saving others in combat.
SFC Webster was offered accommodations that would have kept him from serving as a combatant. Instead of checking with an Army Trial Defense Service lawyer (or listening to one, if he checked), SFC Webster decided to rely on advice given by Sheiks and Imams he found on the internet. He made his choices and now faces the consequences of those choices.
That is probably the case after having read more about Webster. He seems to think that he should not be deployed to fight against mulslims since it would send him to hell. I am fine with him believing that, but my sympathy for him ended when he reenlisted, which he did probably multiple times since his conversion. The three big wars we have been in the past 20 years (gulf war I, afganistan, and the current war in Iraq) were all against Muslim countries, even though some Muslims were on our side in the 3 wars. In Somalia we were fighting Muslims as well, although again some Muslims were on our side there too. If you joined or stayed in the military in the past 17 years it is pretty obvious that there is a good chance that you will fight against some muslims or be deployed to a country to support the fight against some mulsims. That was my main point since we have had an all volunteer military for 35 years now, which was not the case for the COs in the major wars before 1973.
It even sounds like the army is cool with COs to some extent as long as they follow the rules about objecting, which this guy seems to have not done properly.
Additionally, service people can appeal to federal appeals court regarding decisions from military courts. The most latest high-profile example of this would be Army 1LT Watada.
This guy is either confused--which, given his experience and opportunity to learn--is not likely, or he's been put up to this by the imams.
Those who are clueless about the circumstances and the generous accomodations offered this guy and his views in general, or those who know and pretend otherwise, will make this a cause celebre about anti-Muslim prejudice and the mean ol' army.
I expect we'll see the latter, and my question is whether that was the goal of starting this in the first place.
You're right that habeas review is available in federal court, but the review is pretty highly deferential in most cases. The Watada habeas case was grossly mishandled by the feds, which in my view caused some of its problems.
Emphasis added to th problematic part.
Considering that lying to infidels is explcitly allowed and recommended in Islam, I think getting to "sincere" is pretty darn hard.