The Volokh Conspiracy

Gary Gygax, RIP:

Gary Gygax, co-creator of Dungeons and Dragons, passed away today. Others are more qualified than I am to discuss his immense technical contributions to the development of D&D and roleplaying games more generally. I will only note that an incredibly high percentage of the successful academics, scientists, and intellectuals from my generation were D&D players in their teens. I don't think that is a coincidence. Playing D&D also helped get me and many others interested in ancient and medieval history, which remains a major interest many years after I gave up the game itself. Gygax will certainly be missed.

UPDATE: To clear up some confusion among commenters, I don't necessarily mean to suggest that playing D&D actually causes success in academia or science. Two variables can be correlated in a noncoincidental way even if one does not cause the other. For example A and B can be highly correlated because both are in part caused by the same third variable C. In this case, playing D&D and later success in an intellectual profession were probably caused by an underlying propensity towards interest in intellectual issues (AKA - NERDINESS). Similarly, the competitiveness and attention to detail that you need to be a good D&D player also come in handy in academia, science and other intellectual fields. However, it's also possible that some causal link did exist. The experience of of playing D&D can also help stimulate other intellectual interests, as certainly happened in my case (though those particular interests didn't become the focus of my eventual career choice).

UPDATE #2: There is in fact evidence (albeit unscientific) suggesting that playing D&D does sometimes influence later career choices. Gary Gygax's wife told reporters today that "[o]ver the years, it was one of his great pleasures to meet fans who told him that fooling around with characters, persona and dice ultimately helped them decide to becoming [sic] a doctor, a lawyer, a policeman, or whatever else. 'He really enjoyed that.'" This didn't quite work in my case. My preferred D&D character classes were clerics and fighters, neither of which have much connection to my current career.

Cornellian (mail):
Failed his last saving throw . . .
3.4.2008 6:58pm
pgepps (www):
Ilya, as someone noted in the comments to Malkin's post about Gygax (here's another academic who gamed, though late)...

Gygax will be missed unless someone rolls a natural 20.

...but, yeah, here's to many a good hour spent in fun with real humans present, enjoying one another's company and forming many a lasting "party."
3.4.2008 7:07pm
Perseus (mail):
I don't know his alignment, so which of the outer planes will he end up in?
3.4.2008 7:08pm
Ilya Somin:
I don't know his alignment, so which of the outer planes will he end up in?

I tend to think that Gygax was chaotic good. If so, he would end up in Arborea/Olympus.
3.4.2008 7:15pm
iNonymous (mail):
"I will only note that an incredibly high percentage of the successful academics, scientists, and intellectuals from my generation were D&D players in their teens."

Ha ha ha! Link? Or is this completely made up?

"I don't think that is a coincidence."

Correlation =/= causation.

Ilya, you're my favorite conspirator, but come on.
3.4.2008 7:19pm
Anon123 (mail):
I don't read Ilya as saying there was causation.
3.4.2008 7:44pm
Curt Fischer:

Prof. Somin: "I don't think that is a coincidence."

iNonymous: Correlation =/= causation.


Did Prof. Somin's post imply otherwise? I interpret a coincidence to be a chance occurrence not particularly likely to happen. If P correlates with Q and we observe both P and Q, it's not really a coincidence regardless of whether any causal link between P and Q exists.

For example, an incredibly high percentage of the people going into the men's bathroom at my workplace are taller than the average worker around here.

It is fallacy to conclude that using the urinal causes people to grow taller. But, it's also wrong to say that this observation is a "coincidence". I believe this is the kind of point Prof. Somin was shooting for.
3.4.2008 7:52pm
whit:
i agree. she said there is C often with D.

she didn't say C caused D or vice versa
3.4.2008 7:52pm
Anonymouseducator (mail) (www):
Ilya is a woman?
3.4.2008 8:02pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I was into D&D before I got into comic books. The funnest part of D&D was cheating. I was a 100th level cleric/fighter/magic user. My character killed gods and assumed god-like power.
3.4.2008 8:04pm
Chris Newman (mail) (www):
Where's a good high level cleric when you need one?
3.4.2008 8:20pm
Mr. Bingley (www):
I played for a long time when it first came out in the late 70s. A wonderful game and experience; my xbox360 is a pale substitute...but it requires a hell of a lot less work than what went in to being a good DM.
3.4.2008 8:22pm
UW2L:
"An incredibly high percentage of the successful academics, scientists, and intellectuals from my generation were D&D players in their teens."

And now they still never go outside.

Rest in peace, Mr. Gygax, and I'm sure thousands of people the world over will pour out a little Mountain Dew for you during this weekend's regularly scheduled game night.
3.4.2008 8:23pm
Allen G. (www):

Where's a good high level cleric when you need one?


Unfortunately, there was only a druid nearby. He was successfully reincarnated as a badger.
3.4.2008 8:25pm
Bender (mail):
I'll always remember his guest appearance on Futurama playing D+D with Frye, Uhura, Al Gore, et al., after the cosmos is destroyed.
3.4.2008 8:25pm
CDU (mail) (www):
Where's a good high level cleric when you need one?


That doesn't work on deaths from old age, unfortunately.

We'll miss 'ya Gary.
3.4.2008 8:29pm
Prosecutorial Indiscretion:
He had a huge impact on the world and his legacy expands every year - the concepts he came up with way back in his Chainmail days and refined over the ensuing years will form the foundation of a huge portion of human entertainment for the foreseeable future. May he rest in peace.
3.4.2008 8:46pm
Orielbean (mail):
Gamers do it with imagination!
3.4.2008 8:49pm
Justin (mail):
"Gamers" only do it in their minds ;)
3.4.2008 8:51pm
Public_Defender (mail):

Where's a good high level cleric when you need one?

That doesn't work on deaths from old age, unfortunately.

Sometimes you just run out of hit points.
3.4.2008 9:00pm
A.S.:
It appears Gygax had a low Constitution. R.I.P.
3.4.2008 9:05pm
Brett Bellmore:
LOL! I remember some entertaining games when I introduced our DM to some of the books he'd cribbed the magic system from, leading to our adventuring in Lankhmar and on the Dying Earth. He was a real visionary when it came to gaming systems, even though he was mostly piecing together bits of other people's works for the contents.
3.4.2008 9:06pm
Hoosier:
Yeah, well, I was a big devotee of the game as an adolescent. I suspect this delayed the loss of my virginity by 2 yrs, 8 mo.

I don't know how that compares to the average RPG-Induced-Lay-Delay.

(Fortunately I started playing guitar at 16, unlike our DM. But it has left me with survivor's guilt.)
3.4.2008 9:33pm
Ilya Somin:
Correlation =/= causation.

Ilya, you're my favorite conspirator, but come on.


A correlation need not be causal for it to not be coincidence (caused by chance alone). For example, a noncoincidental correlation could be caused by an omitted variable (in this case intellectualism) which causes both of the correlated effects.
3.4.2008 10:37pm
Ilya Somin:
Where's a good high level cleric when you need one?

High-level Magic-users also have reincarnation spells. Clearly, there weren't any of them available either...
3.4.2008 10:39pm
Crackmonkeyjr (www):
As a 26 year old lawyer who still plays D&D, I think certain forms of D&D are actually great training for being a lawyer.

The role playing aspect of it isn't all that helpful, but if you are in to just gaming the system, it involves taking a set fairly closed set of rules, being able to find those rules that best work to your advantage in a particular situation and combine and argue them in such a way to get the DM to go along with your interpretation. This is basically the skill set lawyers, at least lawyers involved in litigation, need.
3.4.2008 10:51pm
JoshL (mail):

Where's a good high level cleric when you need one?


That doesn't work on deaths from old age, unfortunately.

We'll miss 'ya Gary.


Oh come on, Miracle (for clerics) and/or Wish (mages) would probably work...then again, at that point, we're talking reallllly high level mages.

Where's Gandalf Elminster when you need him?
3.4.2008 11:01pm
SenatorX (mail):
"The funnest part of D&D was cheating. I was a 100th level cleric/fighter/magic user."

I disagree completely. The funnest part of D&D was NOT cheating but the exact opposite, playing by the rules as strictly as possible. I have played a lot of D&D (as well as Gamma World, Top Secret, etc) when I was younger and even in college I was the DM for a regular group who would beg me to play as much as possible. One of the keys to their fun was non-arbitrary dungeon mastering. If they thought for a second I was making it up as I went along behind the screen it would have ruined it.

Gary created an excellent game and he certianly should have been proud.
3.4.2008 11:29pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
Gary sent my wife and I a small but gorgeous lead dragon he had personally painted as a wedding gift. I put it on top of our wedding cake. He was a really fun guy to be around.
3.5.2008 12:13am
Lysenko (mail):
It didn't influence you at -all-, Ilya? You never spent any time arguing over the proper interpretation of a vaguely worded passage in a sourcebook, or finding a clever combination of rules that gave you or your party an advantage?
3.5.2008 12:24am
OrinKerr:
In this case, playing D&D and later success in an intellectual profession were probably caused by an underlying propensity towards interest in intellectual issues (AKA - NERDINESS).

Yeah, that seems about right.
3.5.2008 1:05am
Burt Likko (mail) (www):
There was never a "lawyer" class in D&D but I don't find it surprising at all that a lot of D&D players wind up in the law. In addition to the concept Crackmonkeyjr and SenatorX describe, there's also the basic skill that the game worked -- immersion in an imaginary world based on the oral description of another person. The game teaches you how to get inside someone else's head -- and how to get them inside yours. I credit D&D with helping me develop the skill of understanding a witness' testimony and determining if it's credible or not. Trying to get information from a difficult NPC turned out to be kind of like cross-examination.
3.5.2008 1:23am
David Schwartz (mail):
I met Gary Gygax at a sci-fi conventions many years ago. A friend and I decided to go to the end of convention dinner. We sat at a table, left our jackets, and got up to get food at the buffet. When we sat back down, we noticed a jacket on the chair next to mine. I noticed it had an "honored guest" banner, but I couldn't quite read the name without making some odd movements.

When he sat down, my jaw kind of dropped. My friend stammered, "good lord, you're Gary Gygax". The high point was after dinner, he asked everyone at the table if they wanted to help him play test a game he was working on. My friend, myself, and two others at the table accepted his offer.

It was called "King of Germany, King of France" (or "King of England, King of France", something like that). It was a truly awful game, but I won, allowing me to forever describe this story as the time I "beat Gary Gyxgax at his his own game".

I credit him for popularizing role-playing games with real rules. All modern MMORPGs owe him big time.
3.5.2008 2:34am
Ventrue Capital (mail) (www):

I credit him for popularizing role-playing games with real rules.

What would be a role-playing game without real rules? Postal Diplomacy?

All modern MMORPGs owe him big time.

I tend to agree, but I'm curious what would have happened if we hadn't had real RPGs before we developed the technology for electronic games.
3.5.2008 3:39am
Happyshooter:
I always liked the magic user class, even though under his game system it was harder to guess what spells you needed and then ration them during the game day.

The modern versions of the old class, from what I can tell, are easier to play.
3.5.2008 7:51am
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
Senator X,

But you probably never got to be a 100th level cleric/fighter/magic user with Godlike power. I was 12 years old at the time btw.
3.5.2008 7:55am
Dan S.:
SenatorX -

I find your comment very interesting (and contrary to my whole D&D experience):


The funnest part of D&D was . . . playing by the rules as strictly as possible. . . . One of the keys to their fun was non-arbitrary dungeon mastering. If they thought for a second I was making it up as I went along behind the screen it would have ruined it.


I wonder when you played. My friends and I played most intensely in high school (1978-82). At that time, the rules were not so set in stone, and the greatest fun we had was precisely when the DM was being most creative and throwing surprises our way. At that time, the first AD&D books were just coming out and we treated them mostly as suggestions, since we thought that the best part of D&D was the enormous amount of creativity it allowed.

Almost all of our D&D gaming was based on worlds and scenarios we came up with ourselves, not store bought modules. One of the very best games our group played was when the DM (now a partner at a major New York Law firm) was literally making it up as he went along. The notion that we had no idea what might be happening next or that we would encounter monsters that we had never heard of or that a monster or character might do something totally uncharacteristic was fascinating and thrilling.

In fact, there were times when we found ourselves without any written materials, and we had to play an improvised game either with a single six sided die or no dice at all. That's when the skill of the DM was most critical.

Dan
3.5.2008 9:17am
Aeon J. Skoble (mail):
Of course, some folks think you're going to hell for this:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp ;-)
3.5.2008 9:39am
Guest101:
I also found playing D&D to be a great way to sharpen lawyering skills, though the fact that my DM during my last campaign (when I was in law school) was also a law student probably helped. I remember specifically referencing expressio unius or ejusdem generis on more than one occasion, though I can't recall exactly what the disputes were about. This was right after 3d Edition was released, and the relative lack of official interpretive glosses coupled with abundant ambiguities in the Player's Handbook (I still think the common interpretation of the Great Cleave feat is a misinterpretation of the text) was fertile source material for creative advocacy.
3.5.2008 9:58am
kevin r:
Let us observe 3D6 seconds of silence...
3.5.2008 10:31am
FantasiaWHT:
I am a huge RPG (the electronic kind) fan - sadly I was too young to really experience D&D at an earlier stage. Someday I'd like to try it, but all the people I know that used to play aren't into it anymore.

Probably the closest experience to table-top RPG'ing I've seen in the video game world is Neverwinter Nights - You can DM your self-created worlds on your own servers with that game - which I really enjoyed playing.
3.5.2008 11:40am
emsl (mail):
I too played D&D and rarely saw daylight. In retrospect, the interplay between the rules, the other players, and imagination made the experience special. To outside observers, we were geeks/nerds rolling funny dice and arguing about obscure questions of procedure. To us, we were using all that as tools to jointly create fantastic (in its original sense) worlds. I am not surprised by any correlation.

By the way, I generally played a neutral Thief. I am now a lawyer. Perhaps there is some connection.
3.5.2008 11:58am
iNonymous (mail):
In the face of a united and vigorous opposition, I humbly withdraw my comments. They were meant in jest, not in spite.

My Con Law prof used to (and probably still does) hang out in the student lounge on Saturday mornings playing D&D with his wife and young daughters. I never did join in. Although I did enjoy the "Eye of the Beholder" computer game back in, like, 1993.
3.5.2008 11:59am
Guest101:

Probably the closest experience to table-top RPG'ing I've seen in the video game world is Neverwinter Nights - You can DM your self-created worlds on your own servers with that game - which I really enjoyed playing.

NWN is a decent game but pales in comparison to the flexibility and creativity allowed by pencil &paper gaming. If you're an electronic RPG fan you owe it to yourself to experience the real thing; look on Meetup.com or check your local gaming store if you don't know anyone who plays.
3.5.2008 12:20pm
KeithK (mail):
Dan S., you're exactly right. Rules lawyering ruins RPGs in my mind. IMO they are best enjoyed when players aren't trying to min-max everything and GM's aren't trying to tweak the rules to find a way to screw the players. Tell a good story, get (somewhat) into the characters and the situation. The rules are there as a guide to provide some structure, nothing more.

First rule of good GM-ing: just because the dice say it doesn't make it so.
3.5.2008 1:23pm
The Unbeliever (mail):
First rule of good GM-ing: just because the dice say it doesn't make it so.

I smell a Supreme Court Justice joke here, but I'm not witty enough to make it.
3.5.2008 1:34pm
Sisyphus:
I agree with crackmonkey and the others.

I was the cleric in our group, and I ended up as the lawyer. I think that clerics serve similar roles to lawyers in the modern world, particularly transactional lawyers who must bless deals before they are made. Litigators are of course more like fighters going to battle for their lords/clients.

My group of players frequently used the rules in careful and creative ways (though they were AD&D 2nd ed rules then). I often think that was helpful training for being a lawyer, though perhaps not as much as being the son of a lawyer, or many years of debate. We used to argue extensively about effects, especially for unusual uses of spell effects (for instance, mid-level users of Create Water could create hundreds of pounds of water over people's heads, which in the right circumstances could cause lots of damage, but how do you assess how much)?

Judging by the other nerdy folks who admitted to having played formerly that I met in law school, I suspect there were lots of people with similar experiences (though I am not arguing for causation here).
3.5.2008 1:57pm
interested party (mail):
D&D was one of my few escapes as an adolescent, growing up in a very sick and dysfunctional family. My friends and I played D&D at the city public library on Saturday mornings. It was the highlight of my week.

Contrary to various religious groups who railed against it as demonic and occultic, I believe my early exposure to D&D helped me become a Christian. It opened me to the mythical world that "existed" beyond the physical one. Eventually I came to believe, as Tolkein said to C.S. Lewis, that the Christian gospel was a myth that was also true.

RIP.
3.5.2008 2:06pm
Earnest Iconoclast (mail) (www):
I played in high school and the members of my gaming group were variously jocks, members of a reasonably popular local rock band, nerds, and theater buffs. In middle school, I played with my teacher and her family (her daughter was in my class). In college, we played other role-playing games but the groups were just as varied. Members have gone on to be teachers, genetic engineers, photographers, engineers, etc... Actually, we didn't generate any lawyers for some reason.

Playing games were an exercise in group cooperation, negotiation, math, organization, budgeting, etc... And you got to kill evil monsters (or play evil monsters) at the same time! My dad was always amazed at how much "voluntary homework" I'd do playing D&D and other games.

When my kids are older, I'll introduce them to RPGs as well... if I can tear them away from the xbox.
3.5.2008 3:00pm
dejapooh (mail):

My preferred D&D character classes were clerics and fighters, neither of which have much connection to my current career.


Let me get this straight... You see no connection between being a fighter and being a lawyer?
3.5.2008 4:10pm
David Schwartz (mail):
What would be a role-playing game without real rules? Postal Diplomacy?


Cowboys and Indians comes to mind.
3.5.2008 5:14pm
Ilya Somin:
Let me get this straight... You see no connection between being a fighter and being a lawyer?

In my current job (which is not really being a lawyer, but being an academic), I rarely get to kill anything with my vorpal sword +4.
3.5.2008 5:36pm
PhanTom:
In my current job (which is not really being a lawyer, but being an academic), I rarely get to kill anything with my vorpal sword +4.

But think of how many students you've "put to sleep" with the power of your +4 pen. :P

--PtM
3.5.2008 6:02pm
Ilya Somin:
But think of how many students you've "put to sleep" with the power of your +4 pen. :P

The pen is indeed mightier than the sword!
3.5.2008 9:19pm
SenatorX (mail):
Vorpal is +5 if i remember correctly. Not that I would have ever allow such an end game carrot in one of my games.

First rule of good GM-ing: just because the dice say it doesn't make it so.

IMO opinion this is how kids play, they cheat. For someone wanting to build their character over time short-cuts and cheats ruin it. They have to know they earned it fairly. Also players could die in my games and I wasn't going to be responsible for killing someones character. They live and die by the way they respond to situations and by the rolls of the dice.

Of course every DM has to create and invent but there is endless work doing that no need to mess with the basic rules. I would have to create the visual world, be the gods, be every non-player character, make the decisions of the NPCs and monsters, and most of all rationally restict the power-mongering nature of my friends. I absolutely understand why people who played D&D make good lawyers, so much arguing!

When I was player I was usually a Magic-User (or dual class magic user/cleric). I do miss those gaming days, it was some of the funnest times I can remember.
3.5.2008 11:01pm
Kent G. Budge (mail) (www):
My favorite characters were elvish fighter-wizards, and now I work at a nuclear weapons laboratory. So maybe there is some influence on career choice. ;)
3.6.2008 12:16pm