To follow up on Eugene's Thursday post, here is what I wrote about the issue in Chapter 11 of You Can't Say That!:
Approximately two million American women belong to women-only health clubs. Some women, such as those with religious objections to wearing revealing clothes in front of men, and abuse survivors who find it traumatic to display their bodies in front of unfamiliar men, use these clubs by necessity. Other women join these clubs to avoid unwanted male attention while they exercise. Still others, including overweight women and women who have had mastectomies, feel much less self-conscious exercising in an all-female environment. The owner of one women’s health club boasts, "I like to think we're for real women. We don't have everyone looking like a Barbie doll. They're average size and shape. And we don’t let men in. We say, 'No men, no mirrors, no kids.'" The owner of a club that holds women-only aerobics classes explains, "It's a privacy issue. The women are sweating, they don’t have makeup on, and they feel that the guys are staring at their butts."
Some women find men to be a distraction when they go to coed gyms. Cynthia Parziale, director of research and development at the Naturally Women chain of fitness centers opines, "If you're really serious about your workout, it's distracting to have people of the opposite sex around. Women will spend time getting dressed or fixing their hair or putting on their lipstick before they come to the gym. The coolest thing about a women's gym is you can be ugly." Joan Pirone, who patronizes a women-only exercise club in Anchorage, Alaska, told CNN that "[a]t coed clubs you feel like you’re on TV, like the men are constantly looking at you. Some women enjoy the attention from men, but some of us are intimidated by it. I'm glad I have the choice of going to a women-only gym." Other users of women’s health clubs find that the women-only facilities are cleaner and smell better than coed gyms. Women's clubs also often emphasize the workout equipment that is used more frequently by women, and many even have special equipment built for women. The two women-only clubs in Anchorage, for example, have smaller-than-average Nautilus machines designed for women's bodies, with the weight stacks increasing by three-pound increments instead of the usual ten. Women-only clubs also emphasize educational programs focusing on women’s health concerns, such as preventing osteoporosis and losing weight gained during pregnancy.
Despite their popularity and the privacy interests served by allowing women to work out free from male oglers, women-only clubs have sometimes run afoul of state laws banning sex discrimination in public accommodations. In 1988, noted feminist attorney Gloria Allred filed a sex discrimination lawsuit on behalf of a Los Angeles man who was denied admission to a women’s health club. Allred dismissed the concerns of women who join all-women gyms to avoid male ogling. She contended that the idea that all men ogle is a stereotype and that men who misbehave can be excluded from sex-integrated clubs on a case-by-case basis. Yet common experience suggests that heterosexual men are inclined to "check out" women, particularly women wearing small shorts or tight leotards. Further, Allred did not explain how a club would enforce or prevent an anti-ogling policy on an individual basis. It would be very different to actually prove the subtle act of a man evaluating a woman's body (Mr. Jones, please stop undressing Ms. Smith with your eyes), and sensitive women could very well feel ogled whether or not it was actually happening. Despite these
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Related Posts (on one page):
- More on Single-Sex Exercise:
- Single-Sex Exercise:
- Women-Only Exercise:
Just as it's difficult to see why it is shocking for Christians to express displeasure over, say, needlessly crude anti-Christian art (censorship! they cry at negative reviews); but not to be mentioned when Muslims threaten to repeat the "long march through the institutions" of the New Left.
Well, it's not difficult to see. It is the proper sense of the phrase, "power corrupts": noble blather to the contrary, the "mainstream" is so because it allows itself to be bent to the will of whoever love power most and uses it best.
Now, I happen to believe that any owner of a place of public accommodation should be permitted to discriminate despite any negative effects. But the case against women-only gyms is far more compelling than the cases against men-only clubs or golf courses. After all, preserving life is more important than promoting career advancement.
By this logic, if a doctor's office closes for lunch at the same time as some or all of its patients' have a scheduled lunch break, it is preventing them from having their health needs attended to. The patients can make arrangements to see the doctor at another time or find another doctor, and the men in your example can find another gym and/or exercise at another time.
My understanding is that there are forms of cardio exercise that don't require gym equipment, so I don't find your argument to be particularly persuasive.
I would suggest that such men take a little longer to walk to the nearest coed gym. But then, the extra exercise getting there might be bad for their cardiovascular health.
At the same gym, my wife complains about guys staring. Sometimes it gives her the creeps.
I can see how women might not want to be stared at. Sometimes girls just wanna have fun.
Trying to erase gender differences is impossible. Let a thousand women's gyms and men's club's open!
It has been on the chopping block for years.
Respectfully,
Pol
R/
Pol
Now I agree as a factual matter women aren't as likely to assume another woman is checking them out and even if they do they are likely to be less threatened by it. However, it's hard to see how prejudice can be used to justify segregation. I mean I suspect it is likely that white people are (statistically) more likely to find being looked at by a black person more intimidating/disturbing but surely this doesn't even rise to a serious consideration in favor of racial discrimination.
True, ultimately I agree that this kind of gender distinction is different than the problematic forms or racial and gender discrimination that we want to bar. At the very least there is a greater perceived inequity when women are barred from places men play golf/socialize/do buisness. But what is problematic about this kind of rule is not the particular harms to men from keeping them out of the health club but the troubling precedent set and the harm to femenine equality
By making an exception for this kind of gender discrimination we effectively abandon any kind of principled bright line test and embrace the idea that discrimination is acceptable so long as it is done for a 'good cause,' e.g. to protect women from men but not to let men feel comfortable telling sexual jokes without fear of causing offense. This fundamentally alters the role of antidiscrimination law from a shield that protects the minority from the majority to an imposition of the majority's prejudices on the minority. Whatever sort of prejudices a majority of the society may dream up in the future will get read/placed into antidiscrimination legislation as exceptions in the same way this exception might be.
Secondly, recognizing these exceptions to protect women from male gazes/male bother/etc is itself deeply detrimental to the issue of gender equality. It's psychologically unavoidable that if we think of women as needing protection we will think of them as less capable. The attitude that women need to be protected from predatory male gazes but men don't need to be protected from judgemental/critical feminine gazes is continuous with the idea that women need to be shielded from male combativeness/(verbal) aggression.
I mean all the time I see that when arguments about politics/science/law/whatever come up everyone expects men to be able to take care of themselves and give as good as they take while the same behavior toward a woman will be regarded as being mean and other guys may even intervene to stop him from badgering her. But if you protect women from these arguments and imply that they don't need to be able to handle this sort of verbal argument it seems reasonable to think this would make them less able to handle the inherent conflict involved in learning/doing subjects like math/science. The last thing we want is to encourage this women are weak and need to be protected (non-physically) via legislation.
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I said a lot before (which I still think is true) but I think largely my objection to allowing these clubs where an all male/white/black club would not be allowed comes from my intuition that there is a greater loss of liberty when an ad hoc law with exceptions for all those beliefs the majority happens to hold is passed than when a principled law is passed.
For instance liberty is less infringed if we really passed and enforced as written an anti-loitering law whose provisions only depended on how long a person stands within a certain area of pavement that would infringe liberty less than a law that excepted people wearing business suits (or just included people who looked like gang members).
I'm not totally sure how to express why I have this intuition but I think it has something to do with being punished for your expressive behavior/beliefs. When we have a flat principled rule against discrimination people are more or less subject to equal restraints. However, when our defacto rule becomes 'you can only discriminate if it is for a PC cause (e.g. the majority approves)' now those people who disagree with the majority about what are worthwhile reasons are subject to greater restrictions. This is unclear but I don't really know how to say it better.
the difference between men and women are qualitatively different than those between races.
we recognize that in military combat, bathrooms, marriage, strip searches by police, etc. etc. etc.
and then on a "pure" libertarian analysis, a private business should be allowed to discriminate based on race, gender, or anything else. i'm not a pure libertarian, but i understand the argument.
how do this relate to businesses, like hooters, and their female waitstaff? i assume this sort of discrimination is ok, in the same way that chippendales can discriminate against women strippers?
also, the female/male vs. race/race difference is part of the reason i object to the analogization by gay rights proponents (note I am not against gay marriage) of the race issue with the gender issue.
no matter what anybody says men and women are different in quantitative and qualitative ways that don't exist with racial differences.
nobody can deny that, even many feminists who tried for decades to argue the biological differences were less than they were.
absolutely true. i used to work parttime as a personal trainer, and my experience supports that.
also, so do the studies. i recall one where women were shown a lineup of silhouettes and were told to choose the one that most closely matches what their physique was. men did the same with a group of male silhouettes.
women's choices were biased towards silhouettes that were fatter, stumpier, and less attractive than they actually were.
mens choices were biased towards those that were more muscular, and had better proportions (narrower waist, wider shoulders) than they actually did.
in other words, men and women aren't just differently critical of their own bodies... they PERCEIVE their own bodies differently.
seeing is subjective. men find it much easier to look in the mirror and SEE what isn't there in terms of being better looking than they actually are. women do the exact opposite, and see what is worse than what is actually are.
there are select subgroups of men that, otoh, have different issues. look at, for instance, bodybuilder dysmorphia.
note that men and women are used to placing these subjective lenses over their views of themselves in mirrors. often, when they are photographed, and shown the photographs (or video... and yes, i know the camera "puts on 10 lbs) they don't have that same subjective lens buildup that they have slowly developed day after day of looking in the mirror, and they are SHOCKED at how they appear.
many adults can go their whole lives and never see a photo of themselves naked and/or in a speedo.
i found such photos (speedo, not naked) very useful in personal training, for those that wanted the full honest approach.
Also I wanted to add that the whole idea that men and women NEED seperate restrooms seems to me no better justified than the argument that blacks and whites need seperate restrooms. Ultimately both are justified by no more than a vague feeling of abhorrence and unease (sometimes combined with unsubstantiated fears about safety).
I used to think that coed sex restrooms were totally crazy and was horrified by the idea but then a dorm I moved into in college had them (and individual shower stalls in the coed restrooms) and I quickly got used to it and now have no problem with the notion. This doesn't mean I necessarily want to use a restroom at the same time as a romantic interest but providing two coed restrooms is actually a better way to accomplish this as even gay couples can avoid using the restroom with each other. Also there are objective benefits to coed restrooms for people who need to change babies and the like.
Sure, it may seem obvious that using a restroom around the opposite gender is totally different than using it around another race but whites in the past felt it was just as obvious that you shouldn't mix races in the restrooms. If we want to avoid prejudice we presumably then can't count on these 'certainties' and instead requiring an intellectually compelling argument that coed restrooms really are different.
However, from the article:
Yet common experience suggests that heterosexual men are inclined to "check out" women, particularly women wearing small shorts or tight leotards.
Hey, I have an idea. If you don't want men checking you out, then don't wear small shorts or tight leotards.
I don't wear those things, yet still manage to get a decent workout.
I went to a men's workshop and we did yoga. There was a lot of grunting and vocalization. (Had women been there I think the men would have just been quiet and not pushed themselves so much).
It is difficult to see why we must equate sex differences with race differences. I have far, far more in common with a black woman than I do with a white man. Perceived differences on the basis of melanin are nothing. How do we think the same is true of the differences of sex?
Do we demand the same dressing rooms, toilet and shower facilities for both sexes in co-ed facilities? The day that becomes mandatory, as it is the logical end of this kind of this thing, we will all just jump to comply, or will we stay home to exercise?
Hypocrisy reigns supreme!
This is what happens when coercive utopians take political power and interfere with the rights of individuals. Which only encourages individuals to forsake social interactions. And then the coercive utopians can whine about the decline of society!
We might as well get used to it. There doesn't appear to be any end in sight.
This doesn't completely answer the question (I am still somewhat on the fence about this one) but comparisons to institutions designed to further advantage the already-advantaged (such as the business and networking opportunities provided by all-male golf clubs) are completely inapposite.
[1] And, bizarrely, present this as purely "natural". It's not like it's physically impossible for us not to ogle, guys.
For some social scientist stumped for a project--
How does women's dress differ between women only gyms and mixed gyms? How does their level of fitness vary? Do out of shape women tend to go to women only gyms? Do fit women tend to go to mixed gyms? How do ages compare? Race? Education?
I ask what may be obvious to some because I have never been to a women only gym.
Ken: "Wouldn't this reasoning again allow excluding gays from male-only facilities, and lesbians from female-only facilities, as long as there are other ogling-allowed facilities to keep the gays from being excluded completely?"
Even better, let's have hetero women and gay men only facilities, and lesbian and straight men ones too. Then everyone is happy!
Another thing: At my gym, cell phones are banned in the men's locker room. Figure it out.
If you don't like the law, CHANGE THE LAW.
Is this part of that "Ninth Amend. Jurisprudence" I've been hearing so much about?
Maybe we should have a system whereby any case that isn't covered by law, the judge makes a decision but then remands it to the legislature for immediate action to solve the issue. But that would require, of course, new legislation and it's much more fun to grumble about activist judges.
So, the rights of the GROUP trumps any individual rights? The female Suprme Court Justice is "disadvantaged", and the male janitor in same building is "privileged?
Communism has been tried, OK? It failed. Rights are individual.
I'll leave it at this: the idea that helping women cope with the effect of sexist social norms is "no different" from male sexism is too absurd to merit refutation.
And I'll leave it at this: a person who can't see that there's sexism both ways, that men also have to cope with female sexism (especially in an age where men are increasingly discriminated against... anyone notice that women outnumber men in almost 3:2 in colleges and universities? just one example), and that rights need to be individual and not collective is too absurd to converse with.
While I think it a preeminently reasonable suggestion that Harvard is engaged in an action commanded by political correctness of varying sorts that always ignores any self-contradcitory aspects of a policy, I think the policy is reasonable.
The problem isn't conceiving the difference between this type of self-segregation and male only golf courses. Rather it is understanding how private associative decisions such as golf clubs are thusly regulated in the first place.
I have no problem with government itself manifesting a more gender blind (albeit plenty of oogling despite the blindness) standard so that public golf courses and public pools could not be single sex, nor in their use of the public purse to enforce such a standard for those directly receiving federal money (or state money if it is the state setting the standard).
So long as you are not forced to workout at a public facility then your freedom of association is protected. You can choose a private facility that caters to your whims. Further, government's enforced tin ear gives rise to less dependence on government for these goods in the first place.
On the substance of the current debate, the effort to play goose and gander on gender issues when Harvard acknowledges a gender difference is not useful. I saw Smirchkonis (sp?) debate some representative of the Islamic community on yesterday's today show with regard to this Harvard policy and he looked patently silly. Here was a gentleman making cultural not religious appeal for accomodation for woman choosing a more modest setting and the 'consevative' is arguing for let it all hang out as a matter of kneejerk objection to any policy that could be seen as accommodating sensitivities having any genesis whatsoever in the islamic community.
I would think conservatives would celebrate making space for modesty. If Smirchoniss thought that the sole driving force was a politically correct paen to muslim sensibilities he could have argued it was the correct approach for the wrong reasons. Why hadn't the school resisted a proliferation of coed bathrooms and immodest institutional accomdations for years rather than waiting for muslims to point it out?
It is this style of thinking that has some conservative demonizing Dinesh D'Sousa of late as a muslim apologist of late, and for the life of me I don't get it.
Brian